5 ms·

Mysteries of the Griffin iMate and the Apple Extended Keyboard II

121 points by fanf2 2y ago

lbourdages 2y ago
Is this weird USB boot signal thing the reason why Apple keyboards used to ship with nonstandard USB connectors that would fit their nonstandard USB extension cord? That would explain it, I have been wondering for years...
- mrpippy 2y ago
  I think that was because the max cable length in the USB 1.0 spec is 3 meters. The fairly short captive keyboard cable plus extension was in spec, but using the extension with anything else likely wouldn’t be. Hence, the weird connector to prevent you from using it to extend something else (particularly something with higher current draw)
  - dfox 2y ago
    Technically an extension cable with USB-A jack is forbidden by the USB spec anyway.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  There is no such thing as a standard extension cord - USB A extension cords are forbidden by the USB standard. That's why it's "not USB", because making it USB would ironically make it not allowed to be branded as USB.
playa1 2y ago
Excellent article. Very well presented with just the right level of detail and drama. I had no intention of learning about ADB or crazy Apple USB power-on hacks but here I am having had a great time while doing just that. 10/10 would recommend and now this blog is on my reading list.
dotancohen 2y ago
If you like those keyboards for the keys - and those Alps are the reason that those keyboards are still desirable today - then you might want to check out Matias. They have a terrific Alps clone. It feels amazing, and honestly the split Matias Pro has the best layout I've ever used. That said, the quality is junk. Each $250 keyboard lasted me one year, no longer. That said, even with the high price and low service life, the Matias Pro is so much more comfortable than any other keyboard that I still consider it a good value for the money.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > Each $250 keyboard lasted me one year, no longer. I'm rocking the same Happy Hacking keyboard since so many years I don't even remember how long. Eight years? I think Topre switches are rated for something insane like 10 million keypresses each key: forgot the actual number but it's just bonkers. I don't remember the actual price for I got a family member buying it for me in Japan but IIRC it was approximately $200 back then. As a sidenote I've got that very same Apple Extended II model M3501, as the one in FTA, in my basement.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    The HHK is nice, but I need Function keys and arrow keys (even if I mostly live in VIM). I don't like layers as some IDEs already have triple bucky key combos. And I far prefer a split keyboard, even the MS ergonomics are great (typing on a decade-old Pelvis now).
- chx 2y ago
  Yup, had a Matias Ergo Pro and it always broke. I had piles of broken Matias halves. However, since it used standard tripod screws on the bottom to attach the palm rest I was able to hack it to be vertical which was just glorious. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 I used a Kinesis Freestyle before that and Ascent accessory which allows for 90 degree tenting is steel and 4lbs, not great for travel. I just checked, it's also over 220 dollars. Not great. The setup I linked to above would be the ideal vertical travel keyboard if Matias could make a reliable keyboard but they can't. I am out of ideas currently.
worstspotgain 2y ago
Fun read. One detail towards the end: > Worse, I'm already kind of dissatisfied with the iMate - it doesn't distinguish left and right for Alt/Shift/etc. IIRC, the keys were indistinguishable at the ADB hardware level. The iMate is probably not at fault. Again IIRC, there was also a hard limit of either one or two regular keys held down at one time, plus any combination of modifier keys. Maybe the limit was one key for pre-ADB and two keys for ADB?
- bpye 2y ago
  You can distinguish left and right for alt, shift and control, but not for meta. I actually built a (rather hacky) ADB-USB for this exact keyboard, you can see the look up table I used for translating scan codes [0]. You only get at most two key events at a time, but you can have more keys held - you’ll just receive the events sequentially. I found that the limit depended on which specific keys were being held, but it was certainly more than two. [0] - https://github.com/benpye/rtos/blob/7971ab6a2f26269223f97b8fe034a8a945fd94d9/task/adb_usb_device/src/lib.rs#L180 https://github.com/benpye/rtos/blob/7971ab6a2f26269223f97b8f...
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    More than two even after excluding the modifier keys (shift/control/option/command)?
    - bpye 2y ago
      Just checked, in some cases I guess it is two. For example you can only have two of I, O and P - but you can also have say W, A, S, D and F held. I assume it’s a consequence of the key matrix.
      - worstspotgain 2y ago
        Roger, thanks for checking. I remember that limit as what Apple advertised for development, but I never actually tested it myself. Maybe Apple reduced it to two at the driver level for consistency too, who knows.
rgovostes 2y ago
(2023) Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35772131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35772131
qwerty456127 2y ago
> or pick a real challenge like bit-banging low speed USB in Rust on a dirt cheap RISC-V micro A USB so slow it can't even handle a keyboard smoothly?
- dfox 2y ago
  Typical keyboard is USB Low Speed device (which is why it has relatively thin flimsy captive cable). If you do not care about actually meeting the spec and are only concerned about the thing working reliably you can bit-bang that on essentially any “8bit RISC MCU” made in last 20 years.
Reason077 2y ago
> ”My local $2 shop didn't have a CR1225 cell, but they did have a CR1220 cell which is the same thickness and voltage.” A CR1220 cell is by definition not the same thickness as a 1225. CR = Lithium cell, round 12 = 12mm diameter 25 = 2.5mm height/thickness With only 0.5mm difference, a 1220 and 1225 will be interchangeable in many applications. But not always!
__david__ 2y ago
I used this exact same keyboard and ADB adapter until 2017 (probably 15 years). I only got a new keyboard when I wanted N-key rollover for games. I love the feel of that keyboard a whole lot and tried to get something similar with my new one.
robinsonb5 2y ago
I have an Ortek clone of the AEK II, and use it with TMK running on a ProMicro - I was pleasantly surprised by just how easy it was to get up and running. (Ironically I'd sold an iMate on Ebay a few weeks before acquiring the keyboard!) I took it to a retro computer meet a few days ago, connected to a SiDi128 FPGA device running the Minimig Amiga core - caused a few double-takes!
iwontberude 2y ago
What is bonkers to me is the author immediately assumed the keyboard was bad, instead of the Griffin dongle, despite them being known to never fail. Wasn’t the whole point of this document being the keyboard is legendary? But we should just immediately assume it’s broken.
wiredfool 2y ago
I don't understand how the battery's presence was never acknowledged. The iMate cases were translucent, there was an obvious battery in there. I used one of these for a while, but then switched from an AEK2 to a M13, and a Belkin USB/PS2 adapter which has been going solid now for 24ish? years.
UncleSlacky 2y ago
I wonder why the author didn't go straight to the BMOW WOMBAT instead? https://www.bigmessowires.com/usb-wombat/ https://www.bigmessowires.com/usb-wombat/

121 points by fanf2 2y ago

Is this weird USB boot signal thing the reason why Apple keyboards used to ship with nonstandard USB connectors that would fit their nonstandard USB extension cord? That would explain it, I have been wondering for years...

mrpippy 2y ago
I think that was because the max cable length in the USB 1.0 spec is 3 meters. The fairly short captive keyboard cable plus extension was in spec, but using the extension with anything else likely wouldn’t be. Hence, the weird connector to prevent you from using it to extend something else (particularly something with higher current draw)
- dfox 2y ago
  Technically an extension cable with USB-A jack is forbidden by the USB spec anyway.
kalleboo 2y ago
There is no such thing as a standard extension cord - USB A extension cords are forbidden by the USB standard. That's why it's "not USB", because making it USB would ironically make it not allowed to be branded as USB.

playa1 2y ago

Excellent article. Very well presented with just the right level of detail and drama. I had no intention of learning about ADB or crazy Apple USB power-on hacks but here I am having had a great time while doing just that. 10/10 would recommend and now this blog is on my reading list.

dotancohen 2y ago

If you like those keyboards for the keys - and those Alps are the reason that those keyboards are still desirable today - then you might want to check out Matias. They have a terrific Alps clone. It feels amazing, and honestly the split Matias Pro has the best layout I've ever used. That said, the quality is junk. Each $250 keyboard lasted me one year, no longer. That said, even with the high price and low service life, the Matias Pro is so much more comfortable than any other keyboard that I still consider it a good value for the money.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
> Each $250 keyboard lasted me one year, no longer. I'm rocking the same Happy Hacking keyboard since so many years I don't even remember how long. Eight years? I think Topre switches are rated for something insane like 10 million keypresses each key: forgot the actual number but it's just bonkers. I don't remember the actual price for I got a family member buying it for me in Japan but IIRC it was approximately $200 back then. As a sidenote I've got that very same Apple Extended II model M3501, as the one in FTA, in my basement.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  The HHK is nice, but I need Function keys and arrow keys (even if I mostly live in VIM). I don't like layers as some IDEs already have triple bucky key combos. And I far prefer a split keyboard, even the MS ergonomics are great (typing on a decade-old Pelvis now).
chx 2y ago
Yup, had a Matias Ergo Pro and it always broke. I had piles of broken Matias halves. However, since it used standard tripod screws on the bottom to attach the palm rest I was able to hack it to be vertical which was just glorious. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 I used a Kinesis Freestyle before that and Ascent accessory which allows for 90 degree tenting is steel and 4lbs, not great for travel. I just checked, it's also over 220 dollars. Not great. The setup I linked to above would be the ideal vertical travel keyboard if Matias could make a reliable keyboard but they can't. I am out of ideas currently.

worstspotgain 2y ago

Fun read. One detail towards the end: > Worse, I'm already kind of dissatisfied with the iMate - it doesn't distinguish left and right for Alt/Shift/etc. IIRC, the keys were indistinguishable at the ADB hardware level. The iMate is probably not at fault. Again IIRC, there was also a hard limit of either one or two regular keys held down at one time, plus any combination of modifier keys. Maybe the limit was one key for pre-ADB and two keys for ADB?

bpye 2y ago
You can distinguish left and right for alt, shift and control, but not for meta. I actually built a (rather hacky) ADB-USB for this exact keyboard, you can see the look up table I used for translating scan codes [0]. You only get at most two key events at a time, but you can have more keys held - you’ll just receive the events sequentially. I found that the limit depended on which specific keys were being held, but it was certainly more than two. [0] - https://github.com/benpye/rtos/blob/7971ab6a2f26269223f97b8fe034a8a945fd94d9/task/adb_usb_device/src/lib.rs#L180 https://github.com/benpye/rtos/blob/7971ab6a2f26269223f97b8f...
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  More than two even after excluding the modifier keys (shift/control/option/command)?
  - bpye 2y ago
    Just checked, in some cases I guess it is two. For example you can only have two of I, O and P - but you can also have say W, A, S, D and F held. I assume it’s a consequence of the key matrix.
    - worstspotgain 2y ago
      Roger, thanks for checking. I remember that limit as what Apple advertised for development, but I never actually tested it myself. Maybe Apple reduced it to two at the driver level for consistency too, who knows.

rgovostes 2y ago

(2023) Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35772131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35772131

qwerty456127 2y ago

> or pick a real challenge like bit-banging low speed USB in Rust on a dirt cheap RISC-V micro A USB so slow it can't even handle a keyboard smoothly?

dfox 2y ago
Typical keyboard is USB Low Speed device (which is why it has relatively thin flimsy captive cable). If you do not care about actually meeting the spec and are only concerned about the thing working reliably you can bit-bang that on essentially any “8bit RISC MCU” made in last 20 years.

Reason077 2y ago

> ”My local $2 shop didn't have a CR1225 cell, but they did have a CR1220 cell which is the same thickness and voltage.” A CR1220 cell is by definition not the same thickness as a 1225. CR = Lithium cell, round 12 = 12mm diameter 25 = 2.5mm height/thickness With only 0.5mm difference, a 1220 and 1225 will be interchangeable in many applications. But not always!

__david__ 2y ago

I used this exact same keyboard and ADB adapter until 2017 (probably 15 years). I only got a new keyboard when I wanted N-key rollover for games. I love the feel of that keyboard a whole lot and tried to get something similar with my new one.

robinsonb5 2y ago

I have an Ortek clone of the AEK II, and use it with TMK running on a ProMicro - I was pleasantly surprised by just how easy it was to get up and running. (Ironically I'd sold an iMate on Ebay a few weeks before acquiring the keyboard!) I took it to a retro computer meet a few days ago, connected to a SiDi128 FPGA device running the Minimig Amiga core - caused a few double-takes!

iwontberude 2y ago

What is bonkers to me is the author immediately assumed the keyboard was bad, instead of the Griffin dongle, despite them being known to never fail. Wasn’t the whole point of this document being the keyboard is legendary? But we should just immediately assume it’s broken.

wiredfool 2y ago

I don't understand how the battery's presence was never acknowledged. The iMate cases were translucent, there was an obvious battery in there. I used one of these for a while, but then switched from an AEK2 to a M13, and a Belkin USB/PS2 adapter which has been going solid now for 24ish? years.

UncleSlacky 2y ago

I wonder why the author didn't go straight to the BMOW WOMBAT instead? https://www.bigmessowires.com/usb-wombat/ https://www.bigmessowires.com/usb-wombat/