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As an extrovert, I can safely assure you that the world was never structured in a way favouring extroverts. I still had to go out of my way to get the amount of

As an extrovert, I can safely assure you that the world was never structured in a way favouring extroverts. I still had to go out of my way to get the amount of contacts and activity I wanted. It really was a middle ground which was quite unbalanced by the pandemic and has pretty much come back to a middle ground now (we do 3 days in office - 2 days off but no one here is stupid enough to get a typical American commute thankfully). The fact that so many in software are extreme introverts will be a surprise to no one however.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
I suppose it depends on your perspectives. The overton window shamed introversion as being weird while glamorizing extroversion. I can't say how hard/easy it has been to be extroverted, but there was no shame factor (which an introverted person would say is a favor).
lolinder 2y ago
Unfortunately your assurances don't mean much because neither one of us has experienced the other's struggles and so neither of us is equipped to make an objective comparison. I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing. I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home. I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well. None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  Everyone like a quiet weekend at home from time to time. My experience from a non American background is that people get introverts fairly well (also as a very awkward and to himself teenager I missed the memo where it said introversion was supposed to be shameful) but social interaction is essential. Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists. Anyway HN is funny sometimes in its refusal to face that they are the odd ones. I fear that any person who would have a contrarian opinion as pretty much moved on from ever discussing WFH here I the same way it was a complete waste of time to argue with the anti-systemd crowd. I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
  - a-french-anon 2y ago
    European and pretty hardcore introvert here: you're not mentioning the important fact that introverts are basically invisible to 99% of the fairer sex.
  - ath3nd 2y ago
    > Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists. There are managers, like me, who will judge your work by your work, not by how loud you are, nor by how much you drank with me at the company party. If you are a developer, I don't need to magically guess about your work, I can see it in your commits, I can review them, I can see how much, how often and how well you contribute. As a matter of fact, no matter the amount of talk and "promoting" your work, I will still judge you ONLY based on the actual work. Maybe I am slightly biased against "talkers", but I've found out that doers' work often needs no "promotion" and it speaks for itself. As for talkers, well, they are probably still talking. Maybe it's better if they go to a big company, so they can mix up with doers who actually do work. The less we talk about the work, and more actually doing it, the faster we can do the work, and get on with our lives, wouldn't you agree? > I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me. People who think the only differentiating factor between them and a lower paid worker in a different country, is not their work, but their physical presence and self-marketing tend to work for bosses who enjoy seeing their workers as a form of control. I think it's a match made in heaven. Luckily, there are also people who are confident in the quality of their work without having to "market it", and bosses who judge a person's skill by the results. Which, I hope you agree, is also a match made in heaven.
kagakuninja 2y ago
I don't plan to work in an office ever again, and it is not because I am an introvert. I am saving 2-3 hours of my life by not commuting.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  See my point about American having stupid commute because they refuse/can’t live close to their job. Every discussion about WFH seems to me as a discussion about how US office culture is garbage and not about WFH.
  - freilanzer 2y ago
    This is not specific to Americans, in Germany a lot of people have the same problem.
    - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
      I question the life choice of anyone that chose to have a 3h commute and apparently they do to because they would like to WFH. I think a lot of people are blaming their companies for situation they put themselves in but that’s on trend with the spirit of the time.
      - drdo 2y ago
        Typically real estate is extremely expensive near the places where company offices are. So it's a little unfair to call this a "choice".
      - majewsky 2y ago
        Since Germany was mentioned, I will say that there is a policy debate in Germany right now about taking away unemployment benefits [1] from anyone who refuses a job with up to 3h commuting time. So a 3h commute is not necessarily something that people choose, unless the other choice is to not have any household income. [1] This denomination is slightly oversimplified to avoid giving a lecture on how social welfare works in Germany.
sensanaty 2y ago
I am the furthest thing from an introvert imaginable. I've just spent my weekend surrounded by about 40 of my friends at a festival, and if it were up to me I'd be there for another week minimum. I'd rather be locked up in a padded room alone than suffer through the office. Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. I have actual friends whom I see a lot more often these days thanks to WFH, and nothing on this planet is going to convince me rotting away in an open air office is better than the alternative.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  You are blaming US culture more than having to go to the office. Our experience will never overlap. That: "Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting" doesn’t exist where I live.
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    I'm not a Yank, and referencing your other comment in this thread about the commute, I'm a ~10 minute bike ride from my office. I just don't care about my colleagues in a friendship context. I only interact with them because I have to professionally, but from my last 4 companies I haven't made a single lasting friendship. Because, again, I have a lot of actual friends who I'd much rather see than the random people from my office.
  - ProZsolt 2y ago
    I lived in multiple places in Europe and it was the same.
- cainxinth 2y ago
  > Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. When Google and Facebook were getting headlines for their gourmet cafeterias and fancy game rooms and encouraging their employees to work and socialize at the office, I remember saying “I’d rather drink piss beer at a dive with my real friends than a fancy cocktail at work.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

I suppose it depends on your perspectives. The overton window shamed introversion as being weird while glamorizing extroversion. I can't say how hard/easy it has been to be extroverted, but there was no shame factor (which an introverted person would say is a favor).

lolinder 2y ago

Unfortunately your assurances don't mean much because neither one of us has experienced the other's struggles and so neither of us is equipped to make an objective comparison. I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing. I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home. I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well. None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
Everyone like a quiet weekend at home from time to time. My experience from a non American background is that people get introverts fairly well (also as a very awkward and to himself teenager I missed the memo where it said introversion was supposed to be shameful) but social interaction is essential. Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists. Anyway HN is funny sometimes in its refusal to face that they are the odd ones. I fear that any person who would have a contrarian opinion as pretty much moved on from ever discussing WFH here I the same way it was a complete waste of time to argue with the anti-systemd crowd. I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me.
- a-french-anon 2y ago
  European and pretty hardcore introvert here: you're not mentioning the important fact that introverts are basically invisible to 99% of the fairer sex.
- ath3nd 2y ago
  > Obviously you only get promoted when you can promote your work. No one is going to magically guess it exists. There are managers, like me, who will judge your work by your work, not by how loud you are, nor by how much you drank with me at the company party. If you are a developer, I don't need to magically guess about your work, I can see it in your commits, I can review them, I can see how much, how often and how well you contribute. As a matter of fact, no matter the amount of talk and "promoting" your work, I will still judge you ONLY based on the actual work. Maybe I am slightly biased against "talkers", but I've found out that doers' work often needs no "promotion" and it speaks for itself. As for talkers, well, they are probably still talking. Maybe it's better if they go to a big company, so they can mix up with doers who actually do work. The less we talk about the work, and more actually doing it, the faster we can do the work, and get on with our lives, wouldn't you agree? > I remain convinced that all the people who say WFH should be an evidence are actually petitioning for their job to offshored in the midterm but that’s me. People who think the only differentiating factor between them and a lower paid worker in a different country, is not their work, but their physical presence and self-marketing tend to work for bosses who enjoy seeing their workers as a form of control. I think it's a match made in heaven. Luckily, there are also people who are confident in the quality of their work without having to "market it", and bosses who judge a person's skill by the results. Which, I hope you agree, is also a match made in heaven.

kagakuninja 2y ago

I don't plan to work in an office ever again, and it is not because I am an introvert. I am saving 2-3 hours of my life by not commuting.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
See my point about American having stupid commute because they refuse/can’t live close to their job. Every discussion about WFH seems to me as a discussion about how US office culture is garbage and not about WFH.
- freilanzer 2y ago
  This is not specific to Americans, in Germany a lot of people have the same problem.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    I question the life choice of anyone that chose to have a 3h commute and apparently they do to because they would like to WFH. I think a lot of people are blaming their companies for situation they put themselves in but that’s on trend with the spirit of the time.
    - drdo 2y ago
      Typically real estate is extremely expensive near the places where company offices are. So it's a little unfair to call this a "choice".
    - majewsky 2y ago
      Since Germany was mentioned, I will say that there is a policy debate in Germany right now about taking away unemployment benefits [1] from anyone who refuses a job with up to 3h commuting time. So a 3h commute is not necessarily something that people choose, unless the other choice is to not have any household income. [1] This denomination is slightly oversimplified to avoid giving a lecture on how social welfare works in Germany.

sensanaty 2y ago

I am the furthest thing from an introvert imaginable. I've just spent my weekend surrounded by about 40 of my friends at a festival, and if it were up to me I'd be there for another week minimum. I'd rather be locked up in a padded room alone than suffer through the office. Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. I have actual friends whom I see a lot more often these days thanks to WFH, and nothing on this planet is going to convince me rotting away in an open air office is better than the alternative.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
You are blaming US culture more than having to go to the office. Our experience will never overlap. That: "Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting" doesn’t exist where I live.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  I'm not a Yank, and referencing your other comment in this thread about the commute, I'm a ~10 minute bike ride from my office. I just don't care about my colleagues in a friendship context. I only interact with them because I have to professionally, but from my last 4 companies I haven't made a single lasting friendship. Because, again, I have a lot of actual friends who I'd much rather see than the random people from my office.
- ProZsolt 2y ago
  I lived in multiple places in Europe and it was the same.
cainxinth 2y ago
> Coworkers are not my friends, and the fake socialization I'm forced to put up with there is exhausting, because I just don't care about them. When Google and Facebook were getting headlines for their gourmet cafeterias and fancy game rooms and encouraging their employees to work and socialize at the office, I remember saying “I’d rather drink piss beer at a dive with my real friends than a fancy cocktail at work.