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Good old fashioned pen and paper has tons of problems, and doesn't meet most of the guarantees that these voting systems are going after. Also, good old-fashion

Good old fashioned pen and paper has tons of problems, and doesn't meet most of the guarantees that these voting systems are going after. Also, good old-fashioned pen and paper, when used, is surrounded by various systems and various equipment in order to: keep it anonymous and to make sure that a voter can't prove their vote to others, prevent false votes from being added and real votes from being thrown away, etc. Which is why you get things like voting booths, indelible ink marks on people's hands, elaborate secured containers for cast votes with elaborate seals, and extensive timed processes around how votes should be handled while being moved or counted, including complicated politically-aware algorithms about the selection of observers and counters, and counter-observers (and even foreign observers.) The rules about spoilage in most paper and pen voting systems are probably more complicated and involved than the core algorithms of any of these voting systems. There's was no golden age of voting when elections were trustworthy. Anonymity is a hard problem.

schroeding 2y ago
> Also, good old-fashioned pen and paper, when used, is surrounded by various systems and various equipment I don't know what the US does, but this is how it works in Germany: Around half-ish of the polling station staff are clerks of the local administration (normal office workers of the city hall, who almost always serve their whole life - they are not re-appointed by the current ruling party), half (or more) are citizens. If not enough citizens sign up voluntarily, random citizens are drafted. The equipment is: A list of all eligible citizens, who can vote (no registration is required), a ballot box with a very flimsy padlock, for which the polling station staff has the key, mobile privacy screens for the voters, pens and the actual ballots. If a citizen wants to vote, they show their national ID (something which the US does not have, I know, but that's not the fault of the paper voting process) and get a ballot. They make their choice behind the privacy screen and put the ballot in the ballot box. After the polling station closes, the ballot box is shaken around a bit and anyone[1] can come to look / supervise the polling station staff as they count the votes. The number of votes must be round about equal to the number of voters. The result if given to the city hall via phone, the ballots get put into the ballot box and can be recounted later, if necessary. City hall puts all results on their website, so the polling stations can verify. If a ballot has more than the allowed number of votes or something written on it, the polling station staff holds a quick vote, majority decides. That's all, the whole process. No ink, no complex seals (the key for the ballot box is in a box with the blank ballots, it's only there to prevent accidental opening of the ballot box), no timed process (except "voting until 18 o'clock"), no politically motivated selection of polling station staff or observers. Would you really say that this is more complicated than electronic voting, including understanding the algorithms? Especially for someone with no CS background. And it works - will you sometimes have one ballot more than voters? Yeah, sure, because someone may forgot to count a voter. But those tiny, human discrepancies IMO don't matter when you have >1000 ballots. The result is correct enough, and based on keeping each other in check, not on technical security measures. Everyone can understand the process, and everyone can be a part of it. It does not meet the correctness guarantees of (perfect, untamperable) electronic voting, but it's IMO a heck of a lot simpler, just as trustworthy at scale and anonymous. [1] literally anyone, even non-citizens, no registration required - we even give them coffee if some is still left :D

schroeding 2y ago

> Also, good old-fashioned pen and paper, when used, is surrounded by various systems and various equipment I don't know what the US does, but this is how it works in Germany: Around half-ish of the polling station staff are clerks of the local administration (normal office workers of the city hall, who almost always serve their whole life - they are not re-appointed by the current ruling party), half (or more) are citizens. If not enough citizens sign up voluntarily, random citizens are drafted. The equipment is: A list of all eligible citizens, who can vote (no registration is required), a ballot box with a very flimsy padlock, for which the polling station staff has the key, mobile privacy screens for the voters, pens and the actual ballots. If a citizen wants to vote, they show their national ID (something which the US does not have, I know, but that's not the fault of the paper voting process) and get a ballot. They make their choice behind the privacy screen and put the ballot in the ballot box. After the polling station closes, the ballot box is shaken around a bit and anyone[1] can come to look / supervise the polling station staff as they count the votes. The number of votes must be round about equal to the number of voters. The result if given to the city hall via phone, the ballots get put into the ballot box and can be recounted later, if necessary. City hall puts all results on their website, so the polling stations can verify. If a ballot has more than the allowed number of votes or something written on it, the polling station staff holds a quick vote, majority decides. That's all, the whole process. No ink, no complex seals (the key for the ballot box is in a box with the blank ballots, it's only there to prevent accidental opening of the ballot box), no timed process (except "voting until 18 o'clock"), no politically motivated selection of polling station staff or observers. Would you really say that this is more complicated than electronic voting, including understanding the algorithms? Especially for someone with no CS background. And it works - will you sometimes have one ballot more than voters? Yeah, sure, because someone may forgot to count a voter. But those tiny, human discrepancies IMO don't matter when you have >1000 ballots. The result is correct enough, and based on keeping each other in check, not on technical security measures. Everyone can understand the process, and everyone can be a part of it. It does not meet the correctness guarantees of (perfect, untamperable) electronic voting, but it's IMO a heck of a lot simpler, just as trustworthy at scale and anonymous. [1] literally anyone, even non-citizens, no registration required - we even give them coffee if some is still left :D