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> Everyone knew there were introverts and extroverts, homebodies and socialites, but it had never really mattered. The two groups complemented each other and ma

> Everyone knew there were introverts and extroverts, homebodies and socialites, but it had never really mattered. The two groups complemented each other and managed to peacefully cohabit. What a very extroverted perspective. "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't happy resuming their natural place in society!" The pandemic gave us a taste of what life could be like if the world were structured around our preferred way of existing instead of yours. It turns out we liked it, and now that we've had that taste we're not comfortable resuming the old status quo where we just tag along for the ride in an extroverted world. It boggles my mind that someone can write an article like this and not realize that what they're saying is they wish a group of people would go back to being an underclass.

plasma_beam 2y ago
Amen. Thank you. Not sure if the author intended to sound so crass, but I shared your immediate reaction to those two sentences.
Animats 2y ago
> "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't (happy) resuming their natural place in society!" Hence "Return to Office", and the failure thereof.
- thanksgiving 2y ago
  At a place I worked, they kept trying to use the phrase "return to work" as if we were not working the whole time. :/
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
    Wow. That's pretty offensive. Pretty sure I worked much more during WFH. Hybrid makes Mondays and Fridays feel more like they're part of the weekend, and then all the social events are packed into Tu-Th now so... Jokes on them I guess?
- wildrhythms 2y ago
  I have no doubt RTO appeals to extroverts socially, but the sudden and seemingly coordinated push to RTO is about tax breaks: >New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%. >Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-threat-to-work-from-home-tax-breaks https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-t...
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Yes but no one was ever going to check for each individual employee which is why it's so frustrating that some people were forced in. $Dayjob always gets the innovation tax credit and it's literally just "hey did you innovate? Y/n." RTO but if you're someone who really cares then stay home is a system that makes everyone happy— or at least nobody mad. After months of hand-wringing my work relented to this by having a medical exception that was broad enough that in practice anyone could get it.
- tansan 2y ago
  RTO initiative seemed more like an attempt at value extraction more than anything else. Buildings have mortgages, surrounding businesses need to be supported, etc... Local economies dipped and some hedge fund portfolios suffered, and RTO was the only way to pump their bags. This is all conjecture
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
As an extrovert, I can safely assure you that the world was never structured in a way favouring extroverts. I still had to go out of my way to get the amount of contacts and activity I wanted. It really was a middle ground which was quite unbalanced by the pandemic and has pretty much come back to a middle ground now (we do 3 days in office - 2 days off but no one here is stupid enough to get a typical American commute thankfully). The fact that so many in software are extreme introverts will be a surprise to no one however.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I suppose it depends on your perspectives. The overton window shamed introversion as being weird while glamorizing extroversion. I can't say how hard/easy it has been to be extroverted, but there was no shame factor (which an introverted person would say is a favor).
- lolinder 2y ago
  Unfortunately your assurances don't mean much because neither one of us has experienced the other's struggles and so neither of us is equipped to make an objective comparison. I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing. I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home. I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well. None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
unethical_ban 2y ago
If the world has some zero sum decisions to make, are you shocked someone wishes it worked out for them? Extroverts wish they could go back to socializing and excelling at work in person, and introverts wish they can stay at home at the expense of extroverts. One or the other loses in the workplace.
- lolinder 2y ago
  The difference is that we generally do not recognize a right to coerce someone else into meeting our needs, but we do generally recognize a right to meet our own needs. This is why articles like this rarely come out and say "I need the introverts to come back to social events to meet my needs", they always try to frame it as about productivity or (as very condescendingly demonstrated here) about the mental health of the introverts themselves. I think the balance we need to get to has to be one where extroverts are meeting each other's needs by working in teams that choose to be in person and hanging out with each other socially rather than moping online about how everything is so much less fun. You don't need to drag us along for the ride to have a good time.
  - unethical_ban 2y ago
    Your condescension toward extroverts is noted.

plasma_beam 2y ago

Amen. Thank you. Not sure if the author intended to sound so crass, but I shared your immediate reaction to those two sentences.

Animats 2y ago

> "Everything was fine when the world was structured around an extroverted lifestyle. Then the pandemic hit and everything was miserable for a bit, but what's even worse is that those darn introverts aren't (happy) resuming their natural place in society!" Hence "Return to Office", and the failure thereof.

thanksgiving 2y ago
At a place I worked, they kept trying to use the phrase "return to work" as if we were not working the whole time. :/
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
  Wow. That's pretty offensive. Pretty sure I worked much more during WFH. Hybrid makes Mondays and Fridays feel more like they're part of the weekend, and then all the social events are packed into Tu-Th now so... Jokes on them I guess?
wildrhythms 2y ago
I have no doubt RTO appeals to extroverts socially, but the sudden and seemingly coordinated push to RTO is about tax breaks: >New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%. >Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-threat-to-work-from-home-tax-breaks https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-t...
- Spivak 2y ago
  Yes but no one was ever going to check for each individual employee which is why it's so frustrating that some people were forced in. $Dayjob always gets the innovation tax credit and it's literally just "hey did you innovate? Y/n." RTO but if you're someone who really cares then stay home is a system that makes everyone happy— or at least nobody mad. After months of hand-wringing my work relented to this by having a medical exception that was broad enough that in practice anyone could get it.
tansan 2y ago
RTO initiative seemed more like an attempt at value extraction more than anything else. Buildings have mortgages, surrounding businesses need to be supported, etc... Local economies dipped and some hedge fund portfolios suffered, and RTO was the only way to pump their bags. This is all conjecture

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

As an extrovert, I can safely assure you that the world was never structured in a way favouring extroverts. I still had to go out of my way to get the amount of contacts and activity I wanted. It really was a middle ground which was quite unbalanced by the pandemic and has pretty much come back to a middle ground now (we do 3 days in office - 2 days off but no one here is stupid enough to get a typical American commute thankfully). The fact that so many in software are extreme introverts will be a surprise to no one however.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
I suppose it depends on your perspectives. The overton window shamed introversion as being weird while glamorizing extroversion. I can't say how hard/easy it has been to be extroverted, but there was no shame factor (which an introverted person would say is a favor).
lolinder 2y ago
Unfortunately your assurances don't mean much because neither one of us has experienced the other's struggles and so neither of us is equipped to make an objective comparison. I can tell you that up through high school I watched my fellow introverts get shamed and bullied for being quiet and awkward, but I never saw someone get bullied for being too outgoing. I can tell you that all my life (including in this very comment section) I've had people explicitly tell me that if I just tried harder I'd learn to like social activities because humans are just wired that way, but I never heard anyone say that if a highly social person just tried harder they'd learn to like a quiet weekend at home. I can tell you that I've only started receiving promotions and recognition at work to the extent that I've been able to feign extroversion, and my more introverted colleagues who aren't as good at faking it don't do as well. None of that—being bullied and belittled and passed over for not being social enough—has ever felt like a middle ground to me, and there's not a lot that you could say that would persuade me to view it that way. It's easy to think of the status quo as the middle ground when it's comfortably on your side of the line, so I'll need more than your assurances to doubt my own experience.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago

unethical_ban 2y ago

If the world has some zero sum decisions to make, are you shocked someone wishes it worked out for them? Extroverts wish they could go back to socializing and excelling at work in person, and introverts wish they can stay at home at the expense of extroverts. One or the other loses in the workplace.

lolinder 2y ago
The difference is that we generally do not recognize a right to coerce someone else into meeting our needs, but we do generally recognize a right to meet our own needs. This is why articles like this rarely come out and say "I need the introverts to come back to social events to meet my needs", they always try to frame it as about productivity or (as very condescendingly demonstrated here) about the mental health of the introverts themselves. I think the balance we need to get to has to be one where extroverts are meeting each other's needs by working in teams that choose to be in person and hanging out with each other socially rather than moping online about how everything is so much less fun. You don't need to drag us along for the ride to have a good time.
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  Your condescension toward extroverts is noted.