3 ms·

Completely tangential, but I recently realized how annoying 7400 series is. First annoyance is that manufacturers generally put the logic tech family in the mi

by zokier 2y ago

Completely tangential, but I recently realized how annoying 7400 series is. First annoyance is that manufacturers generally put the logic tech family in the middle, so you got 74HCxxx or 74LVCxxx. This makes searching information very annoying because you can't just do a simple prefix/suffix match. And of course those logic family names have no rhyme or reason, nor are they consistent across vendors. Some parts are also available as 5400 series logic, which makes things even more confusing. Some manufacturers like to throw some letters like SN in front of the 74... part number, making even more difficult to search, or visually scan them. Others don't put any letters in the front At some point some people thought to integrate all of 4000 series logic into 7400 series, so you got some parts that are seemingly logically equivalent but have different part numbers because they come originally from 4000 series instead of 7400 series. The logic family names can also contain digits, so figuring out where the family name ends is not that easy. Like almost all parts, manufacturers love throwing some extra characters in the end to indicate stuff like packaging. The part specs can vary quite a lot between manufacturers, even on nominally same logic family like the popular "74HC" series basically we have gone from 7404 to something like SN74AUP1T04DCKR all this adds up to finding parts being very annoying when building stuff

hyperman1 2y ago
It's the other way around. The series started by 1 manufacturer with the prefix SN54/SN64/SN74 for military/industrial/commercial grade ships. Other manufacturers made compatible clones with other starting characters than SN, and 74 proved much more popular than 54 and 64. So the whole ecosystem became known as the 74 chips. Technological advances made the 74 series obsolete qua speed and power usage, so center characters like HC/HCT made improved variants with functional or full backward compatibility. I'm not sure but assume the 4000 series to be an equivalent but incompatible family that 'lost', much like vhs vs betamax.
- dreamcompiler 2y ago
  7400 series was from Texas Instruments and was originally all TTL (i.e. bipolar transistors). 4000 series came from RCA later and was originally all CMOS. 4000 was popular with designers because it used much lower power, had wider voltage range, and had higher fanout. But in the early days it was also slow, so not many famous computers were built with 4000 series. Later CMOS technology got fast and a funny thing happened: TI and other companies started building CMOS equivalents of 7400 series chips (with the letters HC in the middle for "High speed CMOS") and everybody adopted that system because they were drop-in replacements for the TTL parts but used much less power.
eqvinox 2y ago
As the sibling notes, it started as SN7404… except that's still not the full part number; it's missing a trailing N for PDIP-8 (assuming that's what you meant, as it would be the historical reference) Now to get from SN7404N to SN74AUP1T04DCKR: SN74 is still the same AUP gives you 1.8V logic, this "naming component" goes back to the 70s/80s with 74S 1 gives you a single gate rather than 6 of them. You should be ignoring these if you're looking for the 6-gate variant. T gives you level-shifting capability. You should be ignoring these if you're looking for a "normal" chip. 04 is from the original 7404 name, for an inverter. DCK replaces the N, indicating a SC70 2mm × 1.25mm SMD part R is not part of the part number, it's an ordering specification for a specific reel size. You should be ignoring this while designing, until you need to worry about delivery details. > all this adds up to finding parts being very annoying when building stuff idk, I've never had problems due to naming schemes. Parametric searching is IMHO where things become painful.
- zokier 2y ago
  > idk, I've never had problems due to naming schemes. Concrete example, lets say I need 74123 in my project. If things were sane, I could just type in "74123" in Digikey search field and see what my options are. But you can't because this middlefix logic family thing. And searching for just "123" is completely useless. Let's continue and say we go with the most jellybean 74HC family. Digging bit deeper I discover that in addition to the 74HC123 I was looking for, there is also 74HC4538, which has the same parametrics and same description. Yaay. And just visually eyeballing the part numbers is pain because all the random prefix/middlefix/suffix characters that might or might not be meaningful. I don't think finding basic jelly-bean logic parts should be this complicated. I can deal with analyzing the parameters etc, that is actually intrinsic complexity. But this part number stuff feels like just unnecessary bullshit getting in the way for discovering alternatives. I suppose big players will use preferred manufacturers and predefined logic families, so this won't be a problem. And 74 series is not all that relevant these days anyways. But still some standardization would have been nice.
  - bogantech 2y ago
    You should know which logic family you need before you even get searching - voltage levels and timing should be known beforehand, which will dictate exactly which families are suitable

by zokier 2y ago

hyperman1 2y ago

It's the other way around. The series started by 1 manufacturer with the prefix SN54/SN64/SN74 for military/industrial/commercial grade ships. Other manufacturers made compatible clones with other starting characters than SN, and 74 proved much more popular than 54 and 64. So the whole ecosystem became known as the 74 chips. Technological advances made the 74 series obsolete qua speed and power usage, so center characters like HC/HCT made improved variants with functional or full backward compatibility. I'm not sure but assume the 4000 series to be an equivalent but incompatible family that 'lost', much like vhs vs betamax.

dreamcompiler 2y ago
7400 series was from Texas Instruments and was originally all TTL (i.e. bipolar transistors). 4000 series came from RCA later and was originally all CMOS. 4000 was popular with designers because it used much lower power, had wider voltage range, and had higher fanout. But in the early days it was also slow, so not many famous computers were built with 4000 series. Later CMOS technology got fast and a funny thing happened: TI and other companies started building CMOS equivalents of 7400 series chips (with the letters HC in the middle for "High speed CMOS") and everybody adopted that system because they were drop-in replacements for the TTL parts but used much less power.

eqvinox 2y ago

As the sibling notes, it started as SN7404… except that's still not the full part number; it's missing a trailing N for PDIP-8 (assuming that's what you meant, as it would be the historical reference) Now to get from SN7404N to SN74AUP1T04DCKR: SN74 is still the same AUP gives you 1.8V logic, this "naming component" goes back to the 70s/80s with 74S 1 gives you a single gate rather than 6 of them. You should be ignoring these if you're looking for the 6-gate variant. T gives you level-shifting capability. You should be ignoring these if you're looking for a "normal" chip. 04 is from the original 7404 name, for an inverter. DCK replaces the N, indicating a SC70 2mm × 1.25mm SMD part R is not part of the part number, it's an ordering specification for a specific reel size. You should be ignoring this while designing, until you need to worry about delivery details. > all this adds up to finding parts being very annoying when building stuff idk, I've never had problems due to naming schemes. Parametric searching is IMHO where things become painful.

zokier 2y ago
> idk, I've never had problems due to naming schemes. Concrete example, lets say I need 74123 in my project. If things were sane, I could just type in "74123" in Digikey search field and see what my options are. But you can't because this middlefix logic family thing. And searching for just "123" is completely useless. Let's continue and say we go with the most jellybean 74HC family. Digging bit deeper I discover that in addition to the 74HC123 I was looking for, there is also 74HC4538, which has the same parametrics and same description. Yaay. And just visually eyeballing the part numbers is pain because all the random prefix/middlefix/suffix characters that might or might not be meaningful. I don't think finding basic jelly-bean logic parts should be this complicated. I can deal with analyzing the parameters etc, that is actually intrinsic complexity. But this part number stuff feels like just unnecessary bullshit getting in the way for discovering alternatives. I suppose big players will use preferred manufacturers and predefined logic families, so this won't be a problem. And 74 series is not all that relevant these days anyways. But still some standardization would have been nice.
- bogantech 2y ago
  You should know which logic family you need before you even get searching - voltage levels and timing should be known beforehand, which will dictate exactly which families are suitable