4 ms·

Do you think the US govt should just give up on Intel, retract the CHIPs money from them and give it all to Samsung and TSMC? Having domestic fabs is nice but

Do you think the US govt should just give up on Intel, retract the CHIPs money from them and give it all to Samsung and TSMC? Having domestic fabs is nice but if a company is incompetent, it’s a waste of taxpayer money.

more_corn 2y ago
Should? Yes. Can? No. Also TSMC got sick of all the bullshit and declined the future US partnership fabs. Probably due to the unions throwing their weight around and threatening to delay if they didn’t play ball. Someone with national security authority should have sat those idiots down and had a chat.
JohnFen 2y ago
Why give it to Samsung or TSMC? That money could be used to seed a different domestic company. I don't think domestic fabs are just a "nice to have". Given how dependent we are on these sorts of chips, I think having a domestic producer is critically important.
- osnium123 2y ago
  The barrier to entry is very high to building leading edge fabs so you need to give it to an existing entity
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    Sure, but (just brainstorming here, not espousing any strong opinions) there are more fab companies in the US than people think. They're just making lower-density chips rather than the high-end stuff. You wouldn't have to start from nothing, you could build on something that already exists. My primary point and strong opinion here is that I don't think the issue is as binary as a decision to prop up intel vs a decision to give up on domestic production. There is a whole world of other possible options. Particularly since, no matter what, there is no solution to this problem in the short term. Whatever is done, it will take a long time to produce real fruit.
    - osnium123 2y ago
      How would you feel about forcing Intel sell the fabs off to a healthier third party like TI or Micron or GlobalFoundries?
      - buildbot 2y ago
        Arguably half intel's problem is that their fabs are not performing like they used to. The first 10nm chips were disasters, the endless 14nm revisions as a stopgap, and now the various issues with intel 7…
        osnium123 2y ago
        Agreed. That’s the heart of the questions. If Intel’s fabs are not performing as they did in the past, why should the taxpayer subsidize that organization through the CHIPS Act? It seems like rewarding technical incompetence and if the fabs don’t deliver, it’s not good for national security either.
      - JohnFen 2y ago
        I'm not a big fan of forcing private entities to relinquish their property. There has to be a really solid reason for it (such as that the owner is going to use it in a way that is harmful to others). But buying it? That would be OK.
- osnium123 2y ago
  Also, Intel and GF’s struggles to advance beyond could suggest that domestic technology development teams are simply not capable of going good process development. The only options is to rely on Samsung and TSMC to build semi successful fabs in the US.

more_corn 2y ago

Should? Yes. Can? No. Also TSMC got sick of all the bullshit and declined the future US partnership fabs. Probably due to the unions throwing their weight around and threatening to delay if they didn’t play ball. Someone with national security authority should have sat those idiots down and had a chat.

JohnFen 2y ago

Why give it to Samsung or TSMC? That money could be used to seed a different domestic company. I don't think domestic fabs are just a "nice to have". Given how dependent we are on these sorts of chips, I think having a domestic producer is critically important.

osnium123 2y ago
The barrier to entry is very high to building leading edge fabs so you need to give it to an existing entity
- JohnFen 2y ago
  Sure, but (just brainstorming here, not espousing any strong opinions) there are more fab companies in the US than people think. They're just making lower-density chips rather than the high-end stuff. You wouldn't have to start from nothing, you could build on something that already exists. My primary point and strong opinion here is that I don't think the issue is as binary as a decision to prop up intel vs a decision to give up on domestic production. There is a whole world of other possible options. Particularly since, no matter what, there is no solution to this problem in the short term. Whatever is done, it will take a long time to produce real fruit.
  - osnium123 2y ago
    How would you feel about forcing Intel sell the fabs off to a healthier third party like TI or Micron or GlobalFoundries?
    - buildbot 2y ago
      Arguably half intel's problem is that their fabs are not performing like they used to. The first 10nm chips were disasters, the endless 14nm revisions as a stopgap, and now the various issues with intel 7…
      - osnium123 2y ago
        Agreed. That’s the heart of the questions. If Intel’s fabs are not performing as they did in the past, why should the taxpayer subsidize that organization through the CHIPS Act? It seems like rewarding technical incompetence and if the fabs don’t deliver, it’s not good for national security either.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      I'm not a big fan of forcing private entities to relinquish their property. There has to be a really solid reason for it (such as that the owner is going to use it in a way that is harmful to others). But buying it? That would be OK.
osnium123 2y ago
Also, Intel and GF’s struggles to advance beyond could suggest that domestic technology development teams are simply not capable of going good process development. The only options is to rely on Samsung and TSMC to build semi successful fabs in the US.