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I think Yelp needs to just die at this point. Reviews are gamed, usability is worse and worse. Not sure anyone still uses or trusts Yelp. They’re just in inerti

I think Yelp needs to just die at this point. Reviews are gamed, usability is worse and worse. Not sure anyone still uses or trusts Yelp. They’re just in inertia from their better times.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Is there a more open reviews platform not associated with a company? OpenReviews sort of thing or perhaps an open POI database associated with OSM, with reviews as attributes? Somewhat silly we’re still relying on big companies to collect this data when they then gate it. The timing is right with LLMs that can make maintaining and rating reviews less burdensome on human labor (“moderation” broadly speaking). It’s just text blobs and possibly images linked to people and places.
- null0ranje 2y ago
  I’m not sure that this is something that scales. Online reviews seems to attract only the worst in mass media (e.g., gamed reviews, complaint box for influencers who don’t get “VIP” treatment). The traditional restaurant reviewer filled this role much better. His role as a trusted arbiter was closer to what people want from a site like Yelp, but it’s very labor intensive and obviously doesn’t scale.
  - etrautmann 2y ago
    But then reviews are heavily biased by the taste of a tiny reviewer pool, which prevents breakout surprises and new ideas etc.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I'm honestly not sure how big a problem that was. If anything, critics tend towards the the new and unusual because they're bored. The problem is much more that no one is willing to pay for them.
- brookst 2y ago
  I love the idea but anything like that that got successful would be such a target for gaming that the people working on it would have to focus more on anti-bot work than the core product. And whack-a-mole with bots is just not a fun hobby. Only ways I could see it working at scale are Wikipedia model, which is labor intensive for a large number of people, or some kind of web of trust / reputation system, which is complicated and attackable.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    The Wikipedia model is close to what I had in mind. One way (there are others) identity can be solved for using Stripe Identity or something where you same for a gov credential to identity proof. It costs you $1.50 per request, but is no match for bots. Assuming you bind passkeys or other strong auth factors at account provisioning, and there are only so many high quality reviewers, you’ve got a reasonable limit to effort required. High quality people want to be helpful, they just need a platform where curation and distribution takes place. See: here. I’m just tired of seeing startups and other companies build and kill these knowledge and community based third spaces, and the intangible value inherent to them. (customer identity is a component of my work in fintech as an infosec lead, I get paid to squash bots and fraud)
  - freedomben 2y ago
    My thoughts as well. I can envision a platform where you can review anything from specific make and model of a product to a restaurant to anything else. I think it could be immensely useful. But it would quickly become a victim of its own success as people start using it and the database gets big enough to be useful. bots and spammers would swarm the platform to try to game it. That would require a constant cat and mouse game that would not be fun. Without significant ongoing attention, the site is going to become worthless. In order for a site like this that is labor intensive and not fun to exist, it would need to be monetized at least to the extent it can pay salaries. That's the point at which I don't see any realistic solution. In order to maintain neutrality, it would need to be supported by users, meaning users would need to pay. I don't see very many people paying for something like this. And even if some would, there would have to be some benefit or reason for paid users to pay, and that seems like it would open the door for more cat and mouse games and abuse. Just a hard problem I think.
- windthrown 2y ago
  https://lib.reviews/ https://lib.reviews/ is one I've used but none of the open options seem to be able to gain significant traction.
scrapcode 2y ago
I have never in it's lifetime used Yelp. It has been plagued with shit like this from the beginning.
- pelagicAustral 2y ago
  Same thing, never used it. In fact, the most attention I ever give to the site stem from a Vice series titled "One Star Reviews"
Dalewyn 2y ago
>Not sure anyone still uses or trusts Yelp. The results clearly indicate it is. Remember the world is far more vast than just Hacker News.
- ghaff 2y ago
  And, as I wrote elsewhere, if you travel a lot you need some criteria and Yelp (along with other very imperfect Internet raters) is probably better than eenie-meenie-miney-mo.
ghaff 2y ago
I mean, as at least one other comment noted, anything like Yelp is going to be gamed above and beyond any particularly questionable processes of Yelp itself. Zagat worked pretty well for "foodies" back in a day when raters had to physically mail in hardcopy questionnaires and people had to buy guidebooks in stores. I'm not sure how you duplicate that today absent physical pay-walls on both sides which I can't really see working. I do think the various rating sites--Yelp, TripAdvisor, Google--"work" in the sense that they're probably better than picking at random. And you can't really call the local newspaper's food critic on the phone (which is what my dad used to do). So I'm not sure what the alternative really is. Yes, there's some word of mouth but that's pretty random.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I really hate that they force you to install the app to be able to view reviews that people have freely contributed. This is especially a problem on iOS where you cannot change your user agent so that it will serve you the desktop version.

I think Yelp needs to just die at this point. Reviews are gamed, usability is worse and worse. Not sure anyone still uses or trusts Yelp. They’re just in inertia from their better times.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Is there a more open reviews platform not associated with a company? OpenReviews sort of thing or perhaps an open POI database associated with OSM, with reviews as attributes? Somewhat silly we’re still relying on big companies to collect this data when they then gate it. The timing is right with LLMs that can make maintaining and rating reviews less burdensome on human labor (“moderation” broadly speaking). It’s just text blobs and possibly images linked to people and places.

null0ranje 2y ago
I’m not sure that this is something that scales. Online reviews seems to attract only the worst in mass media (e.g., gamed reviews, complaint box for influencers who don’t get “VIP” treatment). The traditional restaurant reviewer filled this role much better. His role as a trusted arbiter was closer to what people want from a site like Yelp, but it’s very labor intensive and obviously doesn’t scale.
- etrautmann 2y ago
  But then reviews are heavily biased by the taste of a tiny reviewer pool, which prevents breakout surprises and new ideas etc.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I'm honestly not sure how big a problem that was. If anything, critics tend towards the the new and unusual because they're bored. The problem is much more that no one is willing to pay for them.
brookst 2y ago
I love the idea but anything like that that got successful would be such a target for gaming that the people working on it would have to focus more on anti-bot work than the core product. And whack-a-mole with bots is just not a fun hobby. Only ways I could see it working at scale are Wikipedia model, which is labor intensive for a large number of people, or some kind of web of trust / reputation system, which is complicated and attackable.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  The Wikipedia model is close to what I had in mind. One way (there are others) identity can be solved for using Stripe Identity or something where you same for a gov credential to identity proof. It costs you $1.50 per request, but is no match for bots. Assuming you bind passkeys or other strong auth factors at account provisioning, and there are only so many high quality reviewers, you’ve got a reasonable limit to effort required. High quality people want to be helpful, they just need a platform where curation and distribution takes place. See: here. I’m just tired of seeing startups and other companies build and kill these knowledge and community based third spaces, and the intangible value inherent to them. (customer identity is a component of my work in fintech as an infosec lead, I get paid to squash bots and fraud)
- freedomben 2y ago
  My thoughts as well. I can envision a platform where you can review anything from specific make and model of a product to a restaurant to anything else. I think it could be immensely useful. But it would quickly become a victim of its own success as people start using it and the database gets big enough to be useful. bots and spammers would swarm the platform to try to game it. That would require a constant cat and mouse game that would not be fun. Without significant ongoing attention, the site is going to become worthless. In order for a site like this that is labor intensive and not fun to exist, it would need to be monetized at least to the extent it can pay salaries. That's the point at which I don't see any realistic solution. In order to maintain neutrality, it would need to be supported by users, meaning users would need to pay. I don't see very many people paying for something like this. And even if some would, there would have to be some benefit or reason for paid users to pay, and that seems like it would open the door for more cat and mouse games and abuse. Just a hard problem I think.
windthrown 2y ago
https://lib.reviews/ https://lib.reviews/ is one I've used but none of the open options seem to be able to gain significant traction.

scrapcode 2y ago

I have never in it's lifetime used Yelp. It has been plagued with shit like this from the beginning.

pelagicAustral 2y ago
Same thing, never used it. In fact, the most attention I ever give to the site stem from a Vice series titled "One Star Reviews"

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Not sure anyone still uses or trusts Yelp. The results clearly indicate it is. Remember the world is far more vast than just Hacker News.

ghaff 2y ago
And, as I wrote elsewhere, if you travel a lot you need some criteria and Yelp (along with other very imperfect Internet raters) is probably better than eenie-meenie-miney-mo.

ghaff 2y ago

I mean, as at least one other comment noted, anything like Yelp is going to be gamed above and beyond any particularly questionable processes of Yelp itself. Zagat worked pretty well for "foodies" back in a day when raters had to physically mail in hardcopy questionnaires and people had to buy guidebooks in stores. I'm not sure how you duplicate that today absent physical pay-walls on both sides which I can't really see working. I do think the various rating sites--Yelp, TripAdvisor, Google--"work" in the sense that they're probably better than picking at random. And you can't really call the local newspaper's food critic on the phone (which is what my dad used to do). So I'm not sure what the alternative really is. Yes, there's some word of mouth but that's pretty random.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I really hate that they force you to install the app to be able to view reviews that people have freely contributed. This is especially a problem on iOS where you cannot change your user agent so that it will serve you the desktop version.