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Adding a LIDAR will add a problem of "the system couldn't decide between believing a lidar or camera, decided to go with LIDAR which was wrong, and smashed into

by k_bx 2y ago

Adding a LIDAR will add a problem of "the system couldn't decide between believing a lidar or camera, decided to go with LIDAR which was wrong, and smashed into a perfectly visible wall".

fredgrott 2y ago
yes but given Tesla had lidar once and did not have these problems where does that leave your narrative? If I remember right it was lidar overriding the camera as the set up when Tesla was using lidar...
- vel0city 2y ago
  Tesla never had lidar on production cars. They had radar.
- k_bx 2y ago
  It doesn't look like Tesla ever was in a state that it didn't have problems. It's a very new area where all solutions are filled with unsolved problems.
xvinci 2y ago
This is just repeating what musk says though without giving it much thought. There are many ways to tackle this problem with different tradeoffs.
- k_bx 2y ago
  Same answer can be given to the original question, couldn't it?
VHRanger 2y ago
All other successful self driving cars use LiDAR.
- daghamm 2y ago
  Removing lidar was 100% a cost saving that was ordered by Elon. I am sure there are internal investigations showing all kind of problems when lidar is removed, and Elon choose to ignore them all to save a few bucks. Look at what he did at twitter. As soon as he was put in charge he removed all safety measures to save money and now twitter is full of bots and scammers. Why do people assume he runs Tesla any differently??
- k_bx 2y ago
  By successful you mean none? No company is "successful", not even Tesla.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Tesla is the least successful of all these companies. Waymo is successfully running a robotaxi business in a few select locations. Mercedes is successfully offering a full self driving solution in certain very limited but very well-defined parameters. Tesla is selling a driver assisted system that can't reliably turn the car or park it without manual intervention a decent percent of the time.
  - Zigurd 2y ago
    Waymo announced a $5B investment to expand service. They also announced a new sensor suite. The new vehicle will have no steering wheel. The vehicle and sensor hardware are real and being demo'ed. They charge real money and have 10,000+ paying customers per week. That's small compared to Uber, but the expansion signals that Waymo can scale up without hiring a lot more vehicle monitoring support people.
chmod775 2y ago
Or it just stop if either sees a wall. Plus with LIDAR being an active system you're more likely to see nothing or garbage where the ground and a road is supposed to be. Good idea to stop if there's a hole in reality! With camera+AI it's the opposite. For too many things AI won't really know what they are - it's mainly looking for things that it does recognize. With unclassified pixels everywhere, of course the default is to ignore what it doesn't understand, otherwise the system would never work. You can see this with the Tesla happily driving through some unrecognized pixels. LIDAR-based systems can operate without having to unsafely ignore things that they can't account for or that don't make sense.
viraptor 2y ago
Teslas have 3 front facing cameras with a lot of overlap, so that same problem has already been decided on. The issue is not new, it's just one more view to merge.
- k_bx 2y ago
  Lol, it's like claiming that a human could have an ear instead of an eye and it would be "just as good", since it's just another sensor. Merging a camera with a camera, and a camera with a completely different kind of a sensor cannot be "the same problem". It's absurd.
  - lawn 2y ago
    What's absurd is saying that adding a better sensor to the mix would somehow make the system worse.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    I'm not saying anything about the quality change. I'm saying that adding lidar is not a change that requires new types of decision. They already have answers for "what to do if one camera identifies something but another doesn't". Same class of problem with the lidar, even if it needs to be solved differently.
almatabata 2y ago
That argument never made sense to me. If we hit a scenario where the camera makes a mistake, we will do the wrong thing 100% of the time. Adding more sensors would have made more sense to me but that would have made the cars more expensive and the existing fleet would need a retrofit.

by k_bx 2y ago

Adding a LIDAR will add a problem of "the system couldn't decide between believing a lidar or camera, decided to go with LIDAR which was wrong, and smashed into a perfectly visible wall".

fredgrott 2y ago

yes but given Tesla had lidar once and did not have these problems where does that leave your narrative? If I remember right it was lidar overriding the camera as the set up when Tesla was using lidar...

vel0city 2y ago
Tesla never had lidar on production cars. They had radar.
k_bx 2y ago
It doesn't look like Tesla ever was in a state that it didn't have problems. It's a very new area where all solutions are filled with unsolved problems.

xvinci 2y ago

This is just repeating what musk says though without giving it much thought. There are many ways to tackle this problem with different tradeoffs.

k_bx 2y ago
Same answer can be given to the original question, couldn't it?

VHRanger 2y ago

All other successful self driving cars use LiDAR.

daghamm 2y ago
Removing lidar was 100% a cost saving that was ordered by Elon. I am sure there are internal investigations showing all kind of problems when lidar is removed, and Elon choose to ignore them all to save a few bucks. Look at what he did at twitter. As soon as he was put in charge he removed all safety measures to save money and now twitter is full of bots and scammers. Why do people assume he runs Tesla any differently??
k_bx 2y ago
By successful you mean none? No company is "successful", not even Tesla.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Tesla is the least successful of all these companies. Waymo is successfully running a robotaxi business in a few select locations. Mercedes is successfully offering a full self driving solution in certain very limited but very well-defined parameters. Tesla is selling a driver assisted system that can't reliably turn the car or park it without manual intervention a decent percent of the time.
- Zigurd 2y ago
  Waymo announced a $5B investment to expand service. They also announced a new sensor suite. The new vehicle will have no steering wheel. The vehicle and sensor hardware are real and being demo'ed. They charge real money and have 10,000+ paying customers per week. That's small compared to Uber, but the expansion signals that Waymo can scale up without hiring a lot more vehicle monitoring support people.

chmod775 2y ago

Or it just stop if either sees a wall. Plus with LIDAR being an active system you're more likely to see nothing or garbage where the ground and a road is supposed to be. Good idea to stop if there's a hole in reality! With camera+AI it's the opposite. For too many things AI won't really know what they are - it's mainly looking for things that it does recognize. With unclassified pixels everywhere, of course the default is to ignore what it doesn't understand, otherwise the system would never work. You can see this with the Tesla happily driving through some unrecognized pixels. LIDAR-based systems can operate without having to unsafely ignore things that they can't account for or that don't make sense.

viraptor 2y ago

Teslas have 3 front facing cameras with a lot of overlap, so that same problem has already been decided on. The issue is not new, it's just one more view to merge.

k_bx 2y ago
Lol, it's like claiming that a human could have an ear instead of an eye and it would be "just as good", since it's just another sensor. Merging a camera with a camera, and a camera with a completely different kind of a sensor cannot be "the same problem". It's absurd.
- lawn 2y ago
  What's absurd is saying that adding a better sensor to the mix would somehow make the system worse.
- viraptor 2y ago
  I'm not saying anything about the quality change. I'm saying that adding lidar is not a change that requires new types of decision. They already have answers for "what to do if one camera identifies something but another doesn't". Same class of problem with the lidar, even if it needs to be solved differently.

almatabata 2y ago

That argument never made sense to me. If we hit a scenario where the camera makes a mistake, we will do the wrong thing 100% of the time. Adding more sensors would have made more sense to me but that would have made the cars more expensive and the existing fleet would need a retrofit.