4 ms·

Delivery worker minimum wage is bringing order to a wild industry

42 points by geox 2y ago

randallsquared 2y ago
> Advocacy groups like Los Deliveristas Unidos, which led the fight for the pay standard, are working to keep deliveristas educated about the benefits of the minimum wage. I think "educated" is an interesting choice of word, there, given the rest of the article.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  It’s a buzzword to try and twist a narrative.
- scotty79 2y ago
  I think much more people should be educated about the benefits of minimum wage, even here. Some people think it only benefits the workers at the cost of everybody else. But it also benefits the market because the most inefficient companies that have business models so bad that they can't even provide minimum wage to their workers are weeded out. Also it benefits job market because workers that are not pushed to the wall financially have marginally higher chance to seek and find employment in a more efficient company than the one they are currently employed by.
dwighttk 2y ago
delivery worker earnings increased from $11.72 per hour to $19.26 per hour after tips — a jump of 64 percent — since last year and total orders have gone up. there are now 12,000 fewer delivery workers. Sounds like a win for some workers. I would like to know the new total of workers though, is 12K fewer a lot? Seems like a lot.
- dwighttk 2y ago
  I don't want to go back and pull the quotations, but there's a lot of "productivity has gone up! Deliveries per hour are up 1/3rd! this proves Uber and Doordash should have been doing this all along!" sentiment contrasted with "It's nice to have a wage so I don't have to rush. I'm paid for my time not for deliveries. It's not fair, they seem to be giving hours to people who are more productive though!"
  - itake 2y ago
    Also, with less workers, you would have lower geographic density, making last mile more expensive
- itake 2y ago
  Tipping is usually a percentage of the order. I wish the article said if the average order size changed instead of just number of orders.
  - ivanbakel 2y ago
    The article says that average order price has stayed stable, including tips and fees.
- evanelias 2y ago
  I'm skeptical about the numbers in this article, since there are a lot of nuances that it doesn't address. Many of the app-based delivery workers in the NYC metro area are migrants who lack legal work permits, so instead they rent someone else's identity/account on the apps. And counted among this drop in NYC delivery workers are several thousand who live in NYC but now work in Hoboken and Jersey City instead, since the wage law is NYC-specific.
trte9343r4 2y ago
If delivery workers are "full time employees", they should get the same protections, not just equal pay. Many are attacked by dogs while delivering, by customers of their employer. That is a text book examples of job related injury! Also interfering with a post delivery is a federal crime, and violent assault! But right now workers are gas lighted "you provoked the dog", or it "was your fault". Instead of compensation and paid sick leave, they have to pay hospital bill themselfs and are forced to take unpaid leave for recovery! Some are even bullied not to report their attacker! There is also social justice and racial argument! Most delivery workers are low income, while attackers who order deliveries are higher income!
- itake 2y ago
  Fair, but also many people that use this serve are disabled and elderly that are already paying a lot.. we could just tell old ppl they need to find another way to get food or they need to reach deeper into their social security checks.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Sounds like we shouldn't consider foundational infrastructure something that should turn a profit. I’m consistently amazed at how many things our progenitors of society nailed - that we threw away trying to make profit, only to realise that serving everyone means that some elements of service will not turn profit.
    - trte9343r4 2y ago
      Post is a foundational infrastructure. It is protected by constitution. Postal workers should be protected, that would also reduce overall costs. Dog owners must be forced to take responsibility. They should not be allowed to push cost of dog attack onto other people! Attacking postal worker for whatever reason should be a crime, punishable by prison!
      - dijit 2y ago
        Preach. I’m not sure how its different from allowing your dog to bite any other civil servant.
benjaminwootton 2y ago
These services are super expensive nowadays. By the time you add service fee, delivery fee and tips, your cold and soggy burger starts to get quite expensive.
- Matticus_Rex 2y ago
  They ran out of investor money to subsidize it with. Now you have to pay the full cost.
- Muromec 2y ago
  Well your can’t have the economic benefits of the caste system without social cost of it, so either it’s subsidized by investors to feel rich or makes no sense
- photonthug 2y ago
  The math is always kind of mind boggling, I mean you assume it adds up somehow but it feels like 15+15+15 for three sandwiches is about 82 dollars. News yesterday said food generally is up 20-25% since Covid, but maybe the reason that even this high number feels quite low for restaurants/delivery is that it really is creeping up on 33% or more after you account for shrinkflation as well as markup
  - bombcar 2y ago
    I don’t understand how Dominos can deliver hot pizza for a $5-10 fee+tip and keep their drivers happy (everyone I’ve ever talked to who drove for Dominos liked doing it and the money was good and remembered fondly even if they’d moved on to better employment). Yet these apps charge something like $20-50 for delivery?
    - Retric 2y ago
      Apps have a lot more overhead built into their deliveries. Dominoes has a small radius around it often enabling multiple drop offs before returning. Dominoes drivers always return to the restaurant after a delivery, and the restaurant is optimized for that handoff generally with a dedicated parking space etc. Apps do longer deliveries from more restaurants who don’t prioritize their time etc. Apps also need to be inherently profitable thus some of the charge is paying for the app itself. Really Apps are like someone took an extremely efficient system and thought how can we make this worse in every possible way.
rty32 2y ago
I spent a little bit of time on the doordash subreddit, and I know just as a matter of fact that there is an insane churn rate of dashers (not exactly a surprise). Many people who don't have a stable job (and often don't have skills) start to deliver food order, hoping it gives some income with some flexibility (family, illness etc). Then they discover lots of issues with the platform and the delivery model itself, and they end up earning less than minimum wage. Then they realize it's not worth the effort and quit. With that in mind, > An Uber spokesperson, for example, said the report proves that the law was a "job killer" because there are now 12,000 fewer delivery workers. My guess is that 10k out of 12k would have quit anyway within a few minths in the old model, and the total amount of orders delivered isn't reduced by that much. I don't view this as a negative.
- namaria 2y ago
  'Job killer' is such a weird way to say 'exploitation blocker'.
  - loa_in_ 2y ago
    It sounds like pandering to some kind of deity that demands jobs filled above all else, at all costs, and a job description be deemed a word of the deity itself.
    - namaria 2y ago
      Corporate capitalism in a nutshell... I should really get around to reading that tech feudalism book I keep hearing about. As a historian, sounds plausible.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      I mean, look at what a lot of these business owners refer to themselves as: "Job Creators". Almost god-like. They are The Creators. As if they will entirety of civilization into existence by waving their magical staff around and Creating Jobs. When they do their holy work, jobs spring up like lettuce from the fertile ground. Give them more subsidies and tax breaks, and they'll Create even more.
nemo44x 2y ago
> “ Minimum pay, the idea, is that the worker doesn't have to rush, they have a wage," said Ajche. Noted. DoorDash (should we call them DoorStroll now?) should change the tipping feature to be set after the delivery. Or algorithmic determine what is relatively fast and slow delivery and adjust the tip based on the performance of the worker. Now that their guaranteed income is higher, their variable should be performance based so the best dashers receive the highest total compensation.
- passwordoops 2y ago
  Like the drivers are actually getting the full value of the tip. Next time you use one of these apps, ask the driver/delivery what this trip is worth and how much tip they actually see. With Uber, I saw them taking as much as a 75% premium off the fare and near the full value of the tip. The ride was fine
  - nemo44x 2y ago
    DoorDash claims the Dasher gets 100% of it. No idea about Uber. Is it tax withholding?
- kevingadd 2y ago
  Dd and GrubHub haven't gotten meaningfully slower for me, the food still arrives warm.
throwaway984393 2y ago
[dead]
constantcrying 2y ago
I think the real problem is that you have people with no other marketable skills who are forced into becoming non-employed "workers". This whole "gig economy" should be illegal. Having someone work full time for a company, but not being an employee of any company, seems like a pretty obvious circumvention of labor laws. The solution should be to force food delivery companies to employ the people doing the deliveries. Of course that will significantly drive up prices, as cost for delivery makes up a substantial part of the total costs. But to be honest food delivery is not something which needs to be as large as it is.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  So, wait, you don't buy Uber and DoorDash's arguments that these gig workers are actually entrepreneurs? They're not really underpaid employees, quite the contrary: each of them are individual small business owners, powerful executives on the top of their one-man totem poles!

42 points by geox 2y ago

> Advocacy groups like Los Deliveristas Unidos, which led the fight for the pay standard, are working to keep deliveristas educated about the benefits of the minimum wage. I think "educated" is an interesting choice of word, there, given the rest of the article.

dgfitz 2y ago
It’s a buzzword to try and twist a narrative.
scotty79 2y ago
I think much more people should be educated about the benefits of minimum wage, even here. Some people think it only benefits the workers at the cost of everybody else. But it also benefits the market because the most inefficient companies that have business models so bad that they can't even provide minimum wage to their workers are weeded out. Also it benefits job market because workers that are not pushed to the wall financially have marginally higher chance to seek and find employment in a more efficient company than the one they are currently employed by.

dwighttk 2y ago

delivery worker earnings increased from $11.72 per hour to $19.26 per hour after tips — a jump of 64 percent — since last year and total orders have gone up. there are now 12,000 fewer delivery workers. Sounds like a win for some workers. I would like to know the new total of workers though, is 12K fewer a lot? Seems like a lot.

dwighttk 2y ago
I don't want to go back and pull the quotations, but there's a lot of "productivity has gone up! Deliveries per hour are up 1/3rd! this proves Uber and Doordash should have been doing this all along!" sentiment contrasted with "It's nice to have a wage so I don't have to rush. I'm paid for my time not for deliveries. It's not fair, they seem to be giving hours to people who are more productive though!"
- itake 2y ago
  Also, with less workers, you would have lower geographic density, making last mile more expensive
itake 2y ago
Tipping is usually a percentage of the order. I wish the article said if the average order size changed instead of just number of orders.
- ivanbakel 2y ago
  The article says that average order price has stayed stable, including tips and fees.
evanelias 2y ago
I'm skeptical about the numbers in this article, since there are a lot of nuances that it doesn't address. Many of the app-based delivery workers in the NYC metro area are migrants who lack legal work permits, so instead they rent someone else's identity/account on the apps. And counted among this drop in NYC delivery workers are several thousand who live in NYC but now work in Hoboken and Jersey City instead, since the wage law is NYC-specific.

trte9343r4 2y ago

If delivery workers are "full time employees", they should get the same protections, not just equal pay. Many are attacked by dogs while delivering, by customers of their employer. That is a text book examples of job related injury! Also interfering with a post delivery is a federal crime, and violent assault! But right now workers are gas lighted "you provoked the dog", or it "was your fault". Instead of compensation and paid sick leave, they have to pay hospital bill themselfs and are forced to take unpaid leave for recovery! Some are even bullied not to report their attacker! There is also social justice and racial argument! Most delivery workers are low income, while attackers who order deliveries are higher income!

itake 2y ago
Fair, but also many people that use this serve are disabled and elderly that are already paying a lot.. we could just tell old ppl they need to find another way to get food or they need to reach deeper into their social security checks.
- dijit 2y ago
  Sounds like we shouldn't consider foundational infrastructure something that should turn a profit. I’m consistently amazed at how many things our progenitors of society nailed - that we threw away trying to make profit, only to realise that serving everyone means that some elements of service will not turn profit.
  - trte9343r4 2y ago
    Post is a foundational infrastructure. It is protected by constitution. Postal workers should be protected, that would also reduce overall costs. Dog owners must be forced to take responsibility. They should not be allowed to push cost of dog attack onto other people! Attacking postal worker for whatever reason should be a crime, punishable by prison!
    - dijit 2y ago
      Preach. I’m not sure how its different from allowing your dog to bite any other civil servant.

benjaminwootton 2y ago

These services are super expensive nowadays. By the time you add service fee, delivery fee and tips, your cold and soggy burger starts to get quite expensive.

Matticus_Rex 2y ago
They ran out of investor money to subsidize it with. Now you have to pay the full cost.
Muromec 2y ago
Well your can’t have the economic benefits of the caste system without social cost of it, so either it’s subsidized by investors to feel rich or makes no sense
photonthug 2y ago
The math is always kind of mind boggling, I mean you assume it adds up somehow but it feels like 15+15+15 for three sandwiches is about 82 dollars. News yesterday said food generally is up 20-25% since Covid, but maybe the reason that even this high number feels quite low for restaurants/delivery is that it really is creeping up on 33% or more after you account for shrinkflation as well as markup
- bombcar 2y ago
  I don’t understand how Dominos can deliver hot pizza for a $5-10 fee+tip and keep their drivers happy (everyone I’ve ever talked to who drove for Dominos liked doing it and the money was good and remembered fondly even if they’d moved on to better employment). Yet these apps charge something like $20-50 for delivery?
  - Retric 2y ago
    Apps have a lot more overhead built into their deliveries. Dominoes has a small radius around it often enabling multiple drop offs before returning. Dominoes drivers always return to the restaurant after a delivery, and the restaurant is optimized for that handoff generally with a dedicated parking space etc. Apps do longer deliveries from more restaurants who don’t prioritize their time etc. Apps also need to be inherently profitable thus some of the charge is paying for the app itself. Really Apps are like someone took an extremely efficient system and thought how can we make this worse in every possible way.

rty32 2y ago

I spent a little bit of time on the doordash subreddit, and I know just as a matter of fact that there is an insane churn rate of dashers (not exactly a surprise). Many people who don't have a stable job (and often don't have skills) start to deliver food order, hoping it gives some income with some flexibility (family, illness etc). Then they discover lots of issues with the platform and the delivery model itself, and they end up earning less than minimum wage. Then they realize it's not worth the effort and quit. With that in mind, > An Uber spokesperson, for example, said the report proves that the law was a "job killer" because there are now 12,000 fewer delivery workers. My guess is that 10k out of 12k would have quit anyway within a few minths in the old model, and the total amount of orders delivered isn't reduced by that much. I don't view this as a negative.

namaria 2y ago
'Job killer' is such a weird way to say 'exploitation blocker'.
- loa_in_ 2y ago
  It sounds like pandering to some kind of deity that demands jobs filled above all else, at all costs, and a job description be deemed a word of the deity itself.
  - namaria 2y ago
    Corporate capitalism in a nutshell... I should really get around to reading that tech feudalism book I keep hearing about. As a historian, sounds plausible.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    I mean, look at what a lot of these business owners refer to themselves as: "Job Creators". Almost god-like. They are The Creators. As if they will entirety of civilization into existence by waving their magical staff around and Creating Jobs. When they do their holy work, jobs spring up like lettuce from the fertile ground. Give them more subsidies and tax breaks, and they'll Create even more.

nemo44x 2y ago

> “ Minimum pay, the idea, is that the worker doesn't have to rush, they have a wage," said Ajche. Noted. DoorDash (should we call them DoorStroll now?) should change the tipping feature to be set after the delivery. Or algorithmic determine what is relatively fast and slow delivery and adjust the tip based on the performance of the worker. Now that their guaranteed income is higher, their variable should be performance based so the best dashers receive the highest total compensation.

passwordoops 2y ago
Like the drivers are actually getting the full value of the tip. Next time you use one of these apps, ask the driver/delivery what this trip is worth and how much tip they actually see. With Uber, I saw them taking as much as a 75% premium off the fare and near the full value of the tip. The ride was fine
- nemo44x 2y ago
  DoorDash claims the Dasher gets 100% of it. No idea about Uber. Is it tax withholding?
kevingadd 2y ago
Dd and GrubHub haven't gotten meaningfully slower for me, the food still arrives warm.

throwaway984393 2y ago

[dead]

constantcrying 2y ago

I think the real problem is that you have people with no other marketable skills who are forced into becoming non-employed "workers". This whole "gig economy" should be illegal. Having someone work full time for a company, but not being an employee of any company, seems like a pretty obvious circumvention of labor laws. The solution should be to force food delivery companies to employ the people doing the deliveries. Of course that will significantly drive up prices, as cost for delivery makes up a substantial part of the total costs. But to be honest food delivery is not something which needs to be as large as it is.

ryandrake 2y ago
So, wait, you don't buy Uber and DoorDash's arguments that these gig workers are actually entrepreneurs? They're not really underpaid employees, quite the contrary: each of them are individual small business owners, powerful executives on the top of their one-man totem poles!