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> No matter how nascent the research is into these imaging extremes, the scientists all agree on one thing: Aphantasia and hyperphantasia are not disorders. Peo

> No matter how nascent the research is into these imaging extremes, the scientists all agree on one thing: Aphantasia and hyperphantasia are not disorders. People at either extreme of the spectrum don’t have problems navigating the world. I don't know about hyperphantasia, but aphantasia absolutely is a disorder. I have a whole stack of things to hang on my office wall, and I can't even begin to do it because I can't lay them out mentally. They've been sitting in a pile for years because I have nowhere to even begin. I can't just start hanging things because I'm going to end up unhappy about where everything is placed. Decorating things in general is very difficult. Or any sort of arranging or laying out where I don't have a representation I can physically (or digitally) manipulate to explore ideas. I also have really poor dreaming. For most of my life I'd say I didn't even have dreams. When I do have dreams, the visual quality is shockingly bad and largely abstract and indistinct. I also have very little autobiographical memory, which I previously didn't think was connected to aphantasia until reading this article. I do know that looking at photos of the past helps with recall, very frequently when my wife tries to describe something to me I'll have no memory of it until I can see a photo. The funny thing is I'm actually fairly visual-driven otherwise. I learn better when I can see things. Although maybe that's actually a consequence as well, maybe other people construct mental images when listening or reading?

spacedcowboy 2y ago
It's funny because I have no mind's eye, and I definitely consider it an advantage. I genuinely thought it was a euphemism until I was about 20, drunk, and surrounded by friends at college, playing a game in the student bar and the "mind's eye" thing came up. They couldn't believe I was serious. I couldn't believe they were serious... For a while at least. My mind works on rules, not imagery. If I am asked to "not think of an elephant in a room", I (of course) immediately think of an elephant in a room, but it's not a visual picture - it's relationships between room and elephant (does it touch the walls, the space around it, does it press the light-switch on, can the door open if it opens inwards, ...) It's the concept of an elephant in a room. There's no visual. Similarly, I don't know my right from my left - instead I have a rule in my head that I run through virtually instantaneously "I write with my right". That then distinguishes for me which is which. If someone gives me directions "first right, second left, right by the pub and next right" I run through that rule for the first instance, and then I have the concept of "not-right" for the "second left" bit. It gets "cached" for a while, and then drops out. So where's the advantage ? I can consciously build these rules up into complicated (well, more complicated than people expect) structures of relationships and "work them". It's not like running an orrery backwards and forwards, but it's the best analogy I can give. I can see boundary conditions and faults well before others do - and often several complex states away from the starting conditions. I'm often called into meetings just to "run this by you" because I can see issues further down the line than most. I'm still subject to garbage-in-garbage-out, but it's still something of a super-power. I'm told I sort of gaze into the middle distance, and then I blink, come back, and say something like "the fromble will interact with the gizmo if the grabbet conflicts with the womble during second-stage init when the moon is waning". Someone goes off and writes a test and almost all the time (hey, I'm human) I'm correct. Mental modelling is what I gain from a lack of visualisation. I think of it as literally building castles in the sky, except the sky isn't spatial, it's relational.
- lilyball 2y ago
  Thinking of relationships is exactly how I conceptualize what I do too. I can manipulate geometric objects in my mind even though I'm not seeing them, because I'm manipulating the relationships between the objects (or between the vertices/edges within an object). The downside of this is all this modeling of relationships is a lot to keep in my brain at once, so there is a limit to how far I can push this. That said, I've yet to encounter a situation where this is actually any better than what my wife can do, who does have a mind's eye (and is frighteningly good at tetris / packing). The part you describe about seeing "boundary conditions" sounds to me like what I do with seeing edge cases and potential unwanted interactions in programming, which is completely non-visual.
- dalmo3 2y ago
  > Mental modelling is what I gain from a lack of visualisation. From is a strong word. It sounds more likely you gain that from having a very high IQ. But in a poetical sense yeah, necessity begets use which begets development, and it's fascinating and inspiring that you were able to build your life around that.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wruza 2y ago
  You may gain it by simply having better intellect. Most things in maths are barely visualizable (properly by a human) or visualization doesn’t help much at least. But we visualizers still can float free in it by using abstract concepts. E.g. to me the whole “abstract” thing means that any mental image of it either doesn’t resemble truth or would be a “category error”.
naasking 2y ago
> I have a whole stack of things to hang on my office wall, and I can't even begin to do it because I can't lay them out mentally You don't have to lay them out mentally to organize them. Just lay them out on the ground and rearrange until it's satisfactory. If aphantasia is linked to other issues, they're minor enough to have straightforward workarounds like this, and no worse than being mildly forgetful or something. That's below "disorder" threshold I'd say, which is why aphantasia has basically gone undetected for so long.
- lilyball 2y ago
  If I lay them out on the ground, I can't see how this interacts with the furniture that's by the wall.
  - naasking 2y ago
    So mark out the furniture outlines with masking tape on the floor.
OvbiousError 2y ago
As an aphant. I kinda think it made me better at physics/mathematics. I also really like not having traumatizing images stick around. If I could choose I wouldn't get mental imagery, I'd rather like to be non-aphant for taste. I do have "sound imaging" btw. It's great to see more research into this, it can e.g. lead to teaching/learning techniques that are more tailored to how ones brain works.
- dfan 2y ago
  Same here! I think whatever compensatory mechanisms I've come up with turn out to be real advantages in some ways. One interesting thing that I've found is that my approach to physics and math problems is often extremely geometric. Even if I don't visually look at things, I'm constantly constructing objects in my head (e.g., graphs of functions) and playing with them, although it's in more of a tactile way. I'll immediately start thinking "what does this function look like?" when my peers are more likely to start by pushing symbols around.
- brotchie 2y ago
  Agree. I wonder if aphantasia forces you to construct a richer and more abstract “internal grammar” when you can’t rely on visual imagery. For mathematicians that aren’t aphantasic I wonder what goes on in your mind when you imagine a “compact set.” To me I have a distinct object that presents “compactness” in the mathematical sense in my brain. It’s not associated with any other sense (words, hearing) it just “is” the concept of compactness. It’s not even related to the formal definition of a compact set. It’s more like a “feeling” of convergence in the limit (if that makes sense). For folks heavily reliant on visual imagery would they have instead a visual representation of “compactness” that’s constructed in the visual sense rather than an abstract idea.
bondarchuk 2y ago
tbh I think there's a pattern where people without mental images learn about the variance in mental imagery and then project everything they don't like about their lives onto that. I don't have mental imagery and yet my autobio memory is just fine, I can hang pictures on my wall, explore ideas about decoration, and my dreams are visual and nice too.
wdutch 2y ago
I agree that it's a disorder. I have aphantasia and wish I didn't. I have low resilience due to having no ability to go to a "happy place" or recall pleasant memories. I wonder if other aphantasiacs have a similar experience or have figured out other ways to keep their mental health up. I'd love to see research into if self-reported aphantasia correlates to depression or anxiety.
- taneliv 2y ago
  Contrary to your experience, the article suggests that aphantasia could be correlated with less mental health issues. Doesn't seem impossible to me, but they don't offer anything to back that claim. As an aphantasic, I tend to escape to entirely fantastical settings and situations when asked to go to my happy place. I don't see them, but I kind of tell myself stories, with elaborate descriptions of landscapes and situations. My imagination is maybe all symbolic, but it hasn't felt like a disorder, more like a super power: imagining things, I'm not constrained so directly by my life experiences.
- lll-o-lll 2y ago
  I think this side of things is more to do with severe autobiographical memory deficit, which not all aphants have. But I do. The thing is; SAMD is often a symptom of depression also, so this is a little chicken and egg. For my own experience, there is definitely a pro in that negative past experiences may as well have never happened; I just don’t care (although I do think there can still be a visceral learning; aversions that don’t come with emotional memory). However, the big con is that a bad time feels like life has always been that way. Again, this is a depression symptom anyway, so chicken and egg. I’m old enough to ride out this roller-coaster of life with my intellectual memories. I know things can change, and what to do when current life experiences suck (sometimes just wait it out, sometime act), so that’s my way to get through the tough times without memories of better times.
sajb 2y ago
You = me point for point

spacedcowboy 2y ago

It's funny because I have no mind's eye, and I definitely consider it an advantage. I genuinely thought it was a euphemism until I was about 20, drunk, and surrounded by friends at college, playing a game in the student bar and the "mind's eye" thing came up. They couldn't believe I was serious. I couldn't believe they were serious... For a while at least. My mind works on rules, not imagery. If I am asked to "not think of an elephant in a room", I (of course) immediately think of an elephant in a room, but it's not a visual picture - it's relationships between room and elephant (does it touch the walls, the space around it, does it press the light-switch on, can the door open if it opens inwards, ...) It's the concept of an elephant in a room. There's no visual. Similarly, I don't know my right from my left - instead I have a rule in my head that I run through virtually instantaneously "I write with my right". That then distinguishes for me which is which. If someone gives me directions "first right, second left, right by the pub and next right" I run through that rule for the first instance, and then I have the concept of "not-right" for the "second left" bit. It gets "cached" for a while, and then drops out. So where's the advantage ? I can consciously build these rules up into complicated (well, more complicated than people expect) structures of relationships and "work them". It's not like running an orrery backwards and forwards, but it's the best analogy I can give. I can see boundary conditions and faults well before others do - and often several complex states away from the starting conditions. I'm often called into meetings just to "run this by you" because I can see issues further down the line than most. I'm still subject to garbage-in-garbage-out, but it's still something of a super-power. I'm told I sort of gaze into the middle distance, and then I blink, come back, and say something like "the fromble will interact with the gizmo if the grabbet conflicts with the womble during second-stage init when the moon is waning". Someone goes off and writes a test and almost all the time (hey, I'm human) I'm correct. Mental modelling is what I gain from a lack of visualisation. I think of it as literally building castles in the sky, except the sky isn't spatial, it's relational.

lilyball 2y ago
Thinking of relationships is exactly how I conceptualize what I do too. I can manipulate geometric objects in my mind even though I'm not seeing them, because I'm manipulating the relationships between the objects (or between the vertices/edges within an object). The downside of this is all this modeling of relationships is a lot to keep in my brain at once, so there is a limit to how far I can push this. That said, I've yet to encounter a situation where this is actually any better than what my wife can do, who does have a mind's eye (and is frighteningly good at tetris / packing). The part you describe about seeing "boundary conditions" sounds to me like what I do with seeing edge cases and potential unwanted interactions in programming, which is completely non-visual.
dalmo3 2y ago
> Mental modelling is what I gain from a lack of visualisation. From is a strong word. It sounds more likely you gain that from having a very high IQ. But in a poetical sense yeah, necessity begets use which begets development, and it's fascinating and inspiring that you were able to build your life around that.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wruza 2y ago
You may gain it by simply having better intellect. Most things in maths are barely visualizable (properly by a human) or visualization doesn’t help much at least. But we visualizers still can float free in it by using abstract concepts. E.g. to me the whole “abstract” thing means that any mental image of it either doesn’t resemble truth or would be a “category error”.

naasking 2y ago

> I have a whole stack of things to hang on my office wall, and I can't even begin to do it because I can't lay them out mentally You don't have to lay them out mentally to organize them. Just lay them out on the ground and rearrange until it's satisfactory. If aphantasia is linked to other issues, they're minor enough to have straightforward workarounds like this, and no worse than being mildly forgetful or something. That's below "disorder" threshold I'd say, which is why aphantasia has basically gone undetected for so long.

lilyball 2y ago
If I lay them out on the ground, I can't see how this interacts with the furniture that's by the wall.
- naasking 2y ago
  So mark out the furniture outlines with masking tape on the floor.

OvbiousError 2y ago

As an aphant. I kinda think it made me better at physics/mathematics. I also really like not having traumatizing images stick around. If I could choose I wouldn't get mental imagery, I'd rather like to be non-aphant for taste. I do have "sound imaging" btw. It's great to see more research into this, it can e.g. lead to teaching/learning techniques that are more tailored to how ones brain works.

dfan 2y ago
Same here! I think whatever compensatory mechanisms I've come up with turn out to be real advantages in some ways. One interesting thing that I've found is that my approach to physics and math problems is often extremely geometric. Even if I don't visually look at things, I'm constantly constructing objects in my head (e.g., graphs of functions) and playing with them, although it's in more of a tactile way. I'll immediately start thinking "what does this function look like?" when my peers are more likely to start by pushing symbols around.
brotchie 2y ago
Agree. I wonder if aphantasia forces you to construct a richer and more abstract “internal grammar” when you can’t rely on visual imagery. For mathematicians that aren’t aphantasic I wonder what goes on in your mind when you imagine a “compact set.” To me I have a distinct object that presents “compactness” in the mathematical sense in my brain. It’s not associated with any other sense (words, hearing) it just “is” the concept of compactness. It’s not even related to the formal definition of a compact set. It’s more like a “feeling” of convergence in the limit (if that makes sense). For folks heavily reliant on visual imagery would they have instead a visual representation of “compactness” that’s constructed in the visual sense rather than an abstract idea.

bondarchuk 2y ago

tbh I think there's a pattern where people without mental images learn about the variance in mental imagery and then project everything they don't like about their lives onto that. I don't have mental imagery and yet my autobio memory is just fine, I can hang pictures on my wall, explore ideas about decoration, and my dreams are visual and nice too.

wdutch 2y ago

I agree that it's a disorder. I have aphantasia and wish I didn't. I have low resilience due to having no ability to go to a "happy place" or recall pleasant memories. I wonder if other aphantasiacs have a similar experience or have figured out other ways to keep their mental health up. I'd love to see research into if self-reported aphantasia correlates to depression or anxiety.

taneliv 2y ago
Contrary to your experience, the article suggests that aphantasia could be correlated with less mental health issues. Doesn't seem impossible to me, but they don't offer anything to back that claim. As an aphantasic, I tend to escape to entirely fantastical settings and situations when asked to go to my happy place. I don't see them, but I kind of tell myself stories, with elaborate descriptions of landscapes and situations. My imagination is maybe all symbolic, but it hasn't felt like a disorder, more like a super power: imagining things, I'm not constrained so directly by my life experiences.
lll-o-lll 2y ago
I think this side of things is more to do with severe autobiographical memory deficit, which not all aphants have. But I do. The thing is; SAMD is often a symptom of depression also, so this is a little chicken and egg. For my own experience, there is definitely a pro in that negative past experiences may as well have never happened; I just don’t care (although I do think there can still be a visceral learning; aversions that don’t come with emotional memory). However, the big con is that a bad time feels like life has always been that way. Again, this is a depression symptom anyway, so chicken and egg. I’m old enough to ride out this roller-coaster of life with my intellectual memories. I know things can change, and what to do when current life experiences suck (sometimes just wait it out, sometime act), so that’s my way to get through the tough times without memories of better times.

sajb 2y ago

You = me point for point