7 ms·

1991 WWW-NeXT Implementation

150 points by ulrischa 2y ago

chasil 2y ago
Just curious, does this compile on MacOS?
- ddalcino 2y ago
  Maybe someone here can do it, but I can't. The Makefile tries to include something at `/usr/lib/nib/app.make`, and I don't have anything there. There are some clues at https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/444717/how-to-compile-the-original-first-world-wide-web-browser-nexus-by-tim-b-lee https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/444717/how-to-compi... but I'm not sure I'm willing to dive down that rabbit-hole.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - voidfunc 2y ago
    > but I'm not sure I'm willing to dive down that rabbit-hole. You know you wanna!
  - ck45 2y ago
    That's "just" a makefile, which should be rather simple. The true challenge, apart from what was already mentioned as the probably incompatible API, the interface file itself, IB.nib, which is a serialization of the interface. Reading the file on latest macOS is still possible, but for deserialization it can't find some of the classes (e.g. StreamTable). If you want to dig deeper, try the NeXTStep 3.3 developer disc: https://archive.org/details/nextstep3-3dev https://archive.org/details/nextstep3-3dev
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- KerrAvon 2y ago
  No. NeXTstep circa 1990 was very different from OpenStep in 1994. If this was OpenStep-based it would have a chance. NeXT often provided tools to migrate from one version of the frameworks to the next, so it might be possible to get it there, but it’d be a lot of work and a lot of manual massaging would likely still be required.
- favorited 2y ago
  Definitely not. It's old enough that `Object` is the base class, lots of functions use the old NX prefix (instead of NS), it predates the retain/release paradigm, etc. Getting it running wouldn't be an impossible task, because it's a pretty small project (~5k lines of Objective-C) and early 90s Objective-C is a pretty small language. But you'd need to shim all of the long-dead system APIs, or port the code to use their modern cousins.
arittr 2y ago
Thx simonw this rules
flenserboy 2y ago
I got use that, or some near version of it, back in the day. Cool to see here.
jarrell_mark 2y ago
Related: here’s the NCSA Mosaic browser as an AppImage. Runs on any Linux distro without having to recompile. https://appimage.github.io/NCSA_Mosaic/ https://appimage.github.io/NCSA_Mosaic/ NCSA Mosaic was made before Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox, by the same creator
breck 2y ago
The Release Notes page is great: https://www.w3.org/History/1991-WWW-NeXT/Implementation/Features.html https://www.w3.org/History/1991-WWW-NeXT/Implementation/Feat... Thank you simonw, I'm working on a successor to the web now so this is great.
transformi 2y ago
Can someone elaborate on the usage of that? What lessons can be relevant to the current era?
- jonhohle 2y ago
  From just skimming, it’s some nice, clean Objective-C. Always pleasant to read!
- marbu 2y ago
  One way to look at this code is as a quick prototype to get the idea into real thing to play with. And to appreciate that, one have to realize that the original idea included both reading and editing of web pages easily in the same client in WYSIWYG fashion. See https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html for context: I wrote the program using a NeXT computer. This had the advantage that there were some great tools available -it was a great computing environment in general. In fact, I could do in a couple of months what would take more like a year on other platforms, because on the NeXT, a lot of it was done for me already. There was an application builder to make all the menus as quickly as you could dream them up. there were all the software parts to make a wysiwyg (what you see is what you get - in other words direct manipulation of text on screen as on the printed - or browsed page) word processor. I just had to add hypertext, (by subclassing the Text object)
qingcharles 2y ago
This URL from inside the default.html is confusing: http://crnvmc.cern.ch/FIND/PUB.P.HELPCMS.FIND(X/G/H) http://crnvmc.cern.ch/FIND/PUB.P.HELPCMS.FIND(X/G/H)
- marbu 2y ago
  This is likely url of XFIND gateway[1,2] which was basically a first web service making information from XFIND information system available via web. It was already in operational/demo-able state along with WorldWideWeb browser/editor (NeXT), Line mode browser (dumb command line client) in early stage of the web in the end of 1990. This is because gateways like these were crucial for the web to take of in the particle physics scientific community in the first years of the project. This may seem obvious and boring now, but back then, it made a real difference (copy pasting a section from my old post [3]): ... a physicist from German particle physics lab DESY who get used to look up information via XFIND at CERN, but using it from DESY was bit clumsy. First of all he had to telnet to CERN, then login to IBM CERNVM machine, then start XFIND there and then finally place his query to XFIND. Moreover as the connection was slow an unstable, one have to repeat this procedure again in case of a network failure. Compared to this using Line Mode Browser from DESY to directly access XFIND Gateway at CERN was a big improvement, which helped the web to spread to DESY. [1] https://www.w3.org/Talks/FINDGateway.html https://www.w3.org/Talks/FINDGateway.html [2] example http://www.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/cernlib/asdoc/fatmen_html3/node134.html http://www.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/cernlib/asdoc/fatmen_html3/node... [3] https://blog.marbu.eu/posts/2023-04-29-the-first-web-browser/#kickstarting-the-idea https://blog.marbu.eu/posts/2023-04-29-the-first-web-browser...
marbu 2y ago
I wonder whether there are some new developments in digital archeology here which makes the source complete enough for one to be able to compile it (assuming one has access to a NeXT machine with its app builder from early 1990s). I recall when people working on recreation of WWW in 2019 were not able to compile the code: https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/code/ https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/code/
- lioeters 2y ago
  The InfiniteMac project runs emulations of NeXT machines in the browser. This one has WorldWideWeb.app version 1.0. https://infinitemac.org/1991/NeXTStep%202.1 https://infinitemac.org/1991/NeXTStep%202.1 So a determined researcher might be able to compile it from source.
OnlyMortal 2y ago
I seem to remember running this back then. I also remember OmniWeb which was a great browser for the time.
- mattl 2y ago
  OmniWeb was I believe the only web browser released for the NeXT/Apple merger Rhapsody project.
  - OnlyMortal 2y ago
    Which, initially, was a reskinned OpenStep and a PowerPlant Finder.
zokier 2y ago
One interesting thing about web is that it was graphical from day 1, in contrast to e.g. email or ftp that had more text console roots. So things like lynx were always niche, and even anachronistic. There was no era when people widely used text-mode browsers.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  Lynx design was driven by the need to support browsing Gopher spaces. It really didn’t need a GUI.
- eduction 2y ago
  You are wrong. “ The inline images such as the world/book icon and the CERN icon, would have been displayed in separate windows, as it didn't at first do inline images.” https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser “ Marc [Andreessen] and Eric [Bina] did a number of very important things. They made a browser which was easy to install and use. They were the first one to get inline images working - to that point browsers had had varieties of fonts and colors, but pictures were displayed in separate windows.” https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser In the last quote Tim Berners Lee is talking about the Mosaic browser Marc and Eric built at NCSA. It is arguably the thing that made Marc Andreessen famous. And It is indisputably the start of the graphical web. I mean, Marc literally and controversially invented the IMG tag for this. Mosaic came out in 1993, two years after the first WWW (the browser being discussed). So in the earliest years of the web people were absolutely using text mode browsers. (And if displaying graphics optionally in their own window counts as being graphical to you, email and ftp were already there.)
  - WillAdams 2y ago
    Folks who want a bit more background on this should read Tim Berners-Lee's book _Weaving the Web_ (which to some degree was written using the "Navipress" web browser since it also functioned as an interactive editor (for sites which supported the "Push" protocol --- later it was bought by AOL and became "AOLPress") https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/821987.Weaving_the_Web https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/821987.Weaving_the_Web
itomato 2y ago
We are missing the option to run WWW.app from Previous, but you can run Mosaic in MacOS here: https://oldweb.today/?browser=nm2-mac#http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html https://oldweb.today/?browser=nm2-mac#http://info.cern.ch/hy... Source: https://github.com/oldweb-today/netcapsule https://github.com/oldweb-today/netcapsule There are places on the web where you can emulate an early Cube or Personal Mainframe and run WWW.app to view the same.
pcranaway 2y ago
Not fully related, but I remember looking at a website of some person two or three years ago, who claimed to be one of the original developers of Firefox, and if I'm not mistaken, in some blog post on his website, he said something about not getting the recognition he deserved for his work? and shared some early source code of Firefox. I cannot find that person or that blog post, anyone know anything about this?
- velcrovan 2y ago
  the graph mind cares what you do, but not who you are
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- antics9 2y ago
  Per Wikipedia: "Firefox was created in 2002 under the codename "Phoenix" by members of the Mozilla community who desired a standalone browser rather than the Mozilla Application Suite bundle." I do remember from the time that it actually was one young guy who made a strip down version of the Mozilla browser that then got incorporated as a Mozilla product and replaced the Mozilla browser some years after. I don't see that mentioned anywhere though. History says it was Blake Ross[1] coming from Netscape but I don't remember it that way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross
mxer 2y ago
Stats show 72% Objective-C and 10% C. What benefits does Objective-C over C that makes this a language of choice for this project? And what parts are implemented in C? Can someone share some info about this?
- jmole 2y ago
  NeXT invented Objective-C and encouraged its use, and the object-oriented paradigm was as popular back then as rust is today. It was just trendy to do so.
  - ck45 2y ago
    They did not invent it, it was developed at PPI (later Stepstone), before NeXT was founded.
    - WillAdams 2y ago
      To a great degree, NeXT was comprised of an assemblage of talent and technologies which Steve Jobs put together: - Mach microkernel --- Avie Tevanian may well be the most heavily recruited computer science student in history with offers from AT&T, IBM, Microsoft, and NeXT - Interface Builder --- Jean-Marie Hullot originally did a graphical layout system for developing on the Mac - Display PostScript --- to a great degree, NeXT was responsible for this - Objective-C --- as noted elsethread this was worked up by Brad Cox at Stepstone and, of course they licensed Unix from AT&T (and other bits from other sources such as a Pantone color library, or Webster's dictionary for Webster.app, and Mathematica from Wolfram was included early on). Wish my Cube hadn't stopped booting up...
      - jksmith 2y ago
        >- Display PostScript --- to a great degree, NeXT was responsible for this Confirm, got to see a live demo at Comdex ATL back in 1992? Mind blown.
        2y ago
ForOldHack 2y ago
Thank you for solving the dates problem, I have been hacking on for the last month. I applaud him for his novel use of github to do daily priorty lists, on github, but: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41060102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41060102 and https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=guthub%20hacked&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
pyuser583 2y ago
Wasn’t NEXT one of the original HTML tags?
- mattl 2y ago
  NEXTID
sougoushu 2y ago
[dead]
ck45 2y ago
The repo is incomplete, a lot of files are missing. https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb seems to be a more complete snapshot.
cubix4u 2y ago
Can we build this browser in OpenStep?

150 points by ulrischa 2y ago

chasil 2y ago

Just curious, does this compile on MacOS?

ddalcino 2y ago
Maybe someone here can do it, but I can't. The Makefile tries to include something at `/usr/lib/nib/app.make`, and I don't have anything there. There are some clues at https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/444717/how-to-compile-the-original-first-world-wide-web-browser-nexus-by-tim-b-lee https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/444717/how-to-compi... but I'm not sure I'm willing to dive down that rabbit-hole.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- voidfunc 2y ago
  > but I'm not sure I'm willing to dive down that rabbit-hole. You know you wanna!
- ck45 2y ago
  That's "just" a makefile, which should be rather simple. The true challenge, apart from what was already mentioned as the probably incompatible API, the interface file itself, IB.nib, which is a serialization of the interface. Reading the file on latest macOS is still possible, but for deserialization it can't find some of the classes (e.g. StreamTable). If you want to dig deeper, try the NeXTStep 3.3 developer disc: https://archive.org/details/nextstep3-3dev https://archive.org/details/nextstep3-3dev
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
KerrAvon 2y ago
No. NeXTstep circa 1990 was very different from OpenStep in 1994. If this was OpenStep-based it would have a chance. NeXT often provided tools to migrate from one version of the frameworks to the next, so it might be possible to get it there, but it’d be a lot of work and a lot of manual massaging would likely still be required.
favorited 2y ago
Definitely not. It's old enough that `Object` is the base class, lots of functions use the old NX prefix (instead of NS), it predates the retain/release paradigm, etc. Getting it running wouldn't be an impossible task, because it's a pretty small project (~5k lines of Objective-C) and early 90s Objective-C is a pretty small language. But you'd need to shim all of the long-dead system APIs, or port the code to use their modern cousins.

arittr 2y ago

Thx simonw this rules

flenserboy 2y ago

I got use that, or some near version of it, back in the day. Cool to see here.

jarrell_mark 2y ago

Related: here’s the NCSA Mosaic browser as an AppImage. Runs on any Linux distro without having to recompile. https://appimage.github.io/NCSA_Mosaic/ https://appimage.github.io/NCSA_Mosaic/ NCSA Mosaic was made before Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox, by the same creator

breck 2y ago

The Release Notes page is great: https://www.w3.org/History/1991-WWW-NeXT/Implementation/Features.html https://www.w3.org/History/1991-WWW-NeXT/Implementation/Feat... Thank you simonw, I'm working on a successor to the web now so this is great.

transformi 2y ago

Can someone elaborate on the usage of that? What lessons can be relevant to the current era?

jonhohle 2y ago
From just skimming, it’s some nice, clean Objective-C. Always pleasant to read!
marbu 2y ago
One way to look at this code is as a quick prototype to get the idea into real thing to play with. And to appreciate that, one have to realize that the original idea included both reading and editing of web pages easily in the same client in WYSIWYG fashion. See https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html for context: I wrote the program using a NeXT computer. This had the advantage that there were some great tools available -it was a great computing environment in general. In fact, I could do in a couple of months what would take more like a year on other platforms, because on the NeXT, a lot of it was done for me already. There was an application builder to make all the menus as quickly as you could dream them up. there were all the software parts to make a wysiwyg (what you see is what you get - in other words direct manipulation of text on screen as on the printed - or browsed page) word processor. I just had to add hypertext, (by subclassing the Text object)

qingcharles 2y ago

This URL from inside the default.html is confusing: http://crnvmc.cern.ch/FIND/PUB.P.HELPCMS.FIND(X/G/H) http://crnvmc.cern.ch/FIND/PUB.P.HELPCMS.FIND(X/G/H)

marbu 2y ago
This is likely url of XFIND gateway[1,2] which was basically a first web service making information from XFIND information system available via web. It was already in operational/demo-able state along with WorldWideWeb browser/editor (NeXT), Line mode browser (dumb command line client) in early stage of the web in the end of 1990. This is because gateways like these were crucial for the web to take of in the particle physics scientific community in the first years of the project. This may seem obvious and boring now, but back then, it made a real difference (copy pasting a section from my old post [3]): ... a physicist from German particle physics lab DESY who get used to look up information via XFIND at CERN, but using it from DESY was bit clumsy. First of all he had to telnet to CERN, then login to IBM CERNVM machine, then start XFIND there and then finally place his query to XFIND. Moreover as the connection was slow an unstable, one have to repeat this procedure again in case of a network failure. Compared to this using Line Mode Browser from DESY to directly access XFIND Gateway at CERN was a big improvement, which helped the web to spread to DESY. [1] https://www.w3.org/Talks/FINDGateway.html https://www.w3.org/Talks/FINDGateway.html [2] example http://www.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/cernlib/asdoc/fatmen_html3/node134.html http://www.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/cernlib/asdoc/fatmen_html3/node... [3] https://blog.marbu.eu/posts/2023-04-29-the-first-web-browser/#kickstarting-the-idea https://blog.marbu.eu/posts/2023-04-29-the-first-web-browser...

marbu 2y ago

I wonder whether there are some new developments in digital archeology here which makes the source complete enough for one to be able to compile it (assuming one has access to a NeXT machine with its app builder from early 1990s). I recall when people working on recreation of WWW in 2019 were not able to compile the code: https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/code/ https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/code/

lioeters 2y ago
The InfiniteMac project runs emulations of NeXT machines in the browser. This one has WorldWideWeb.app version 1.0. https://infinitemac.org/1991/NeXTStep%202.1 https://infinitemac.org/1991/NeXTStep%202.1 So a determined researcher might be able to compile it from source.

OnlyMortal 2y ago

I seem to remember running this back then. I also remember OmniWeb which was a great browser for the time.

mattl 2y ago
OmniWeb was I believe the only web browser released for the NeXT/Apple merger Rhapsody project.
- OnlyMortal 2y ago
  Which, initially, was a reskinned OpenStep and a PowerPlant Finder.

zokier 2y ago

One interesting thing about web is that it was graphical from day 1, in contrast to e.g. email or ftp that had more text console roots. So things like lynx were always niche, and even anachronistic. There was no era when people widely used text-mode browsers.

firesteelrain 2y ago
Lynx design was driven by the need to support browsing Gopher spaces. It really didn’t need a GUI.
eduction 2y ago
You are wrong. “ The inline images such as the world/book icon and the CERN icon, would have been displayed in separate windows, as it didn't at first do inline images.” https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser “ Marc [Andreessen] and Eric [Bina] did a number of very important things. They made a browser which was easy to install and use. They were the first one to get inline images working - to that point browsers had had varieties of fonts and colors, but pictures were displayed in separate windows.” https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser In the last quote Tim Berners Lee is talking about the Mosaic browser Marc and Eric built at NCSA. It is arguably the thing that made Marc Andreessen famous. And It is indisputably the start of the graphical web. I mean, Marc literally and controversially invented the IMG tag for this. Mosaic came out in 1993, two years after the first WWW (the browser being discussed). So in the earliest years of the web people were absolutely using text mode browsers. (And if displaying graphics optionally in their own window counts as being graphical to you, email and ftp were already there.)
- WillAdams 2y ago
  Folks who want a bit more background on this should read Tim Berners-Lee's book _Weaving the Web_ (which to some degree was written using the "Navipress" web browser since it also functioned as an interactive editor (for sites which supported the "Push" protocol --- later it was bought by AOL and became "AOLPress") https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/821987.Weaving_the_Web https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/821987.Weaving_the_Web

itomato 2y ago

We are missing the option to run WWW.app from Previous, but you can run Mosaic in MacOS here: https://oldweb.today/?browser=nm2-mac#http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html https://oldweb.today/?browser=nm2-mac#http://info.cern.ch/hy... Source: https://github.com/oldweb-today/netcapsule https://github.com/oldweb-today/netcapsule There are places on the web where you can emulate an early Cube or Personal Mainframe and run WWW.app to view the same.

pcranaway 2y ago

Not fully related, but I remember looking at a website of some person two or three years ago, who claimed to be one of the original developers of Firefox, and if I'm not mistaken, in some blog post on his website, he said something about not getting the recognition he deserved for his work? and shared some early source code of Firefox. I cannot find that person or that blog post, anyone know anything about this?

velcrovan 2y ago
the graph mind cares what you do, but not who you are
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
antics9 2y ago
Per Wikipedia: "Firefox was created in 2002 under the codename "Phoenix" by members of the Mozilla community who desired a standalone browser rather than the Mozilla Application Suite bundle." I do remember from the time that it actually was one young guy who made a strip down version of the Mozilla browser that then got incorporated as a Mozilla product and replaced the Mozilla browser some years after. I don't see that mentioned anywhere though. History says it was Blake Ross[1] coming from Netscape but I don't remember it that way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross

mxer 2y ago

Stats show 72% Objective-C and 10% C. What benefits does Objective-C over C that makes this a language of choice for this project? And what parts are implemented in C? Can someone share some info about this?

jmole 2y ago
NeXT invented Objective-C and encouraged its use, and the object-oriented paradigm was as popular back then as rust is today. It was just trendy to do so.
- ck45 2y ago
  They did not invent it, it was developed at PPI (later Stepstone), before NeXT was founded.
  - WillAdams 2y ago
    To a great degree, NeXT was comprised of an assemblage of talent and technologies which Steve Jobs put together: - Mach microkernel --- Avie Tevanian may well be the most heavily recruited computer science student in history with offers from AT&T, IBM, Microsoft, and NeXT - Interface Builder --- Jean-Marie Hullot originally did a graphical layout system for developing on the Mac - Display PostScript --- to a great degree, NeXT was responsible for this - Objective-C --- as noted elsethread this was worked up by Brad Cox at Stepstone and, of course they licensed Unix from AT&T (and other bits from other sources such as a Pantone color library, or Webster's dictionary for Webster.app, and Mathematica from Wolfram was included early on). Wish my Cube hadn't stopped booting up...
    - jksmith 2y ago
      >- Display PostScript --- to a great degree, NeXT was responsible for this Confirm, got to see a live demo at Comdex ATL back in 1992? Mind blown.
      - 2y ago

ForOldHack 2y ago

Thank you for solving the dates problem, I have been hacking on for the last month. I applaud him for his novel use of github to do daily priorty lists, on github, but: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41060102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41060102 and https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=guthub%20hacked&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

pyuser583 2y ago

Wasn’t NEXT one of the original HTML tags?

mattl 2y ago
NEXTID

sougoushu 2y ago

[dead]

ck45 2y ago

The repo is incomplete, a lot of files are missing. https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb seems to be a more complete snapshot.

cubix4u 2y ago

Can we build this browser in OpenStep?