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I'm someone who insists that usage is only one factor, even if it's an important one. I hold on to the idea that authority and historical meaning should not be
by karaterobot 2y ago
I'm someone who insists that usage is only one factor, even if it's an important one. I hold on to the idea that authority and historical meaning should not be completely thrown out with the bathwater.
I've had arguments with people who hold strong opposing positions, and I think that's probably a more normal one to hold than mine, at least among my set.
But recently, one of the people with whom I've had this argument posed the "are hotdogs a sandwich?" question. I said no, he said yes.
At that moment, the exact question posed in this stackexchange question occurred to me, so I went to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a 10x10 grid of pictures of sandwiches. The prompt was `A 10x10 grid of illustrations. In each cell of the grid is a picture of a sandwich.`
Of course it didn't give me a 10x10 grid, because it can't count like that. But it did give me a series of grids of illustrations. I asked the same prompt again, over and over. It took over 200 total images of sandwiches for it to show me a picture that included a hotdog. The hotdog was sticking out from between two pieces of rye bread. It also produced a picture of a whole lobster lying on top of a pita, and a block of sushi wrapped in nori, and an ordinary bowl with a salad in it.
My (trollish) position in that thread became that there is no better authority on common use than ChatGPT, whose entire purpose is to distill it and recapitulate it. So, if meaning is use, hotdogs are definitely not sandwiches—at least they are less clearly so than a bowl of salad is.
- famouswaffles 2y ago>At that moment, the exact question posed in this stackexchange question occurred to me, so I went to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a 10x10 grid of pictures of sandwiches. The prompt was `A 10x10 grid of illustrations. In each cell of the grid is a picture of a sandwich.` Of course it didn't give me a 10x10 grid, because it can't count like that. All ChatGPT is doing is sending a prompt to Dalle-3...
- karaterobot 2y agoExplain the distinction and relevance for me please!
- famouswaffles 2y agoIt can't return a 10x10 grid but it has nothing to do with whether GPT can count or not. Similarly, it took 200+ tries to return a hotdog as you say, and again it has nothing to do GPT or LLMs. You could just replace GPT with a Human and nothing about your experiment would change. >My (trollish) position in that thread became that there is no better authority on common use than ChatGPT, whose entire purpose is to distill it and recapitulate it. You're not querying ChatGPT here. You're querying Dalle-3.
- karaterobot 2y agoThanks for the reply!
- cassianoleal 2y agoI think this is partly due to the usage of the very word "hotdog". In Brazil, cachorro-quente (a literal translation of hotdog to Portuguese) is a sausage in bread - with various other ingredients thrown in depending on many factors, including location (in São Paulo, it's common to add mashed potato; in Rio Grande do Sul, it's common to add "batata-palha" - crunchy potato sticks), etc. Some add sweetcorn. There's usually lettuce, some times other vegetables. That, in my mind, is undeniably a sandwich. In the US, as far as I can tell, the sausage alone can be called a hotdog. In Young Sheldon, they frequently have "hotdog spaghetti", which seems to be pasta with sausage cut in chunks. The sausage alone is not, by any definition, a sandwich. I wonder if it's at least partially due to this usage that ChatGPT has a tendency to not assume "sandwich" from "hotdog".
- taeric 2y agoBut, by this measure, you could probably conclude that a Joshua Tree is not a tree? How many times would you have to ask for a grid of trees before it produced one? (And, obviously, pick any other non-widespread tree at your leisure.)
- karaterobot 2y agoGood point. But, if a Joshua Tree is a rare and not particularly prominent topic of conversation, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to come up when talking about trees. On the other hand, hotdogs are not rare, they're popular and widespread. They are only marginal when talking about sandwiches, which is my point.
- taeric 2y agoHotdogs may not be as rare as a Joshua Tree, but I would still struggle to name a place nearby I could buy one already made? Certainly not without hunting for a place with a kids menu. :D Still, the general point was more that that search strategy doesn't necessarily work. And, indeed, is why we build descriptive categories. That is, we have the categories to describe future things that could be added to them?