8 ms·

I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect people with cars to pay for parking?

by jamil7 2y ago

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
At a lot at a shopping mall, sure. At a park in the suburbs, IMO significantly less so. Especially when ostensibly my property taxes are already paying for the fucking park.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  We should be friends, I like the way you think.
- collingreen 2y ago
  I understand your frustration but I expect there are a lot of things that go into that decision. I expect adding a fee to parking makes it possible to enforce time limits, to remove squatting, and to ensure there are actually spots available. I doubt it is for the money but even if it is the park systems tend to be horribly underfunded (and often have to be held up with private donation money). A lot of our broken things are because someone with too many responsibilities and too little resources has to make a choice between a bunch of bad options and I wonder if this is similar. From your rant we know you'll pick free open spots compared to paid open spots but what if the choice is between paid open spots and no spots at all? Or worse, paid open spots or shady looking cars parked all day selling drugs? It seems like the more effective change is more parks but imagine the pushback if someone tried suggesting that! You're angry that you already pay taxes and now you have to pay again to have a special spot right at the park you can park your car in. Imagine the backlash if someone had the audacity to suggest raising your taxes for new parks. "I already pay for parks! I won't even use 95% of them! Why should I have to pay just because I'm a homeowner!" I can hear my dads voice saying some of these things and it reminds me of his complaints about funding schools with property taxes and I see how people like him pivot this into "the socialists just trying to punish the straight white men". It all makes me sad.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > From your rant we know you'll pick free open spots compared to paid open spots but what if the choice is between paid open spots and no spots at all? I wouldn't know, there weren't any free spots, open or otherwise, for consideration. > Or worse, paid open spots or shady looking cars parked all day selling drugs? I'm not sure what constitutes a shady car in your mind. I'm pretty sure no one in my neighborhood sells drugs. I know that cuz I have to leave my neighborhood to buy the drugs I want. All things being equal I'd much prefer to just buy them in stores but for some insane reason we're still carrying on the war on drugs despite it being linked, in ink and in recordings, directly to the Nixon administration wanting to prevent black people and hippies from voting, so we make do the best we can. > It seems like the more effective change is more parks I mean, we have plenty of parks. Some days they're pretty damn busy but most days they're not. I'm blessed to be a remote worker so I can also just go there (or you know, used to be able to!) and work for a bit too. > but imagine the pushback if someone tried suggesting that! You're angry that you already pay taxes and now you have to pay again to have a special spot right at the park you can park your car in. Imagine the backlash if someone had the audacity to suggest raising your taxes for new parks. I actually pay pretty high taxes for my area. The trade-off is our snow collection is extremely good and the roads are well kept, as are the parks for that matter (now marred with stupid ass parking meters but alas). I'm not opposed in the slightest to paying taxes. I participate in my local government, and I'm planning to bring this up at the next meeting because frankly I think it's bullshit that we're being asked to pay to park there when we're already funding that department. If they need more money or are running at a shortfall, that problem should be addressed with our community like everything else is, with a tax bump if required. I'm frankly infuriated that this was done not just from the principles of it but also because somehow it was done in a way that completely went under the radar of the city council I participate in. This was a huge change and should've been discussed. > "I already pay for parks! I won't even use 95% of them! Why should I have to pay just because I'm a homeowner!" Yes my position would be very unreasonable if it was even remotely this. Thankfully it's not. FWIW I also am fine with paying for our schools too.
    - collingreen 2y ago
      I agree with everything you've said here. My only contribution was that I've seen folks make these kind of choices in good faith even though it isn't directly a thing they want because it's the best of the tools in their toolboxes.
snozolli 2y ago
Not at a public location that's too far or unsafe to walk to. We should have much higher density, high quality housing with plenty of public, walkable green spaces. They calling it "15-Minute Cities" now, but I always called it Tokyo.
- tuna74 2y ago
  I don't remember much "walkable green spaces" in Tokyo or other cities in Japan.
rangerelf 2y ago
I don't think so; the streets are paid for by whatever vehicular taxes, the sidewalks are paid for by property taxes, there's income and sales taxes for additional financing; charging for parking is just adding salt to the wound. In fact... hear me out. It might be that, those that own the paid private parking lots in high traffic areas exacerbate the parking issues in contested areas, creating pressure on free parking areas; then they lobby to put parking meters in those free areas because "the city needs all the money it can get" (ehh, it shouldn't, it doesn't), and voilá, no more free parking anywhere. Just a thought.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > and voilá, no more free parking anywhere. Well... yes, that is precisely what's needed to wean America off its unhealthy dependence on cars. Come over here to Europe, visit our cities where you can actually walk on a sidewalk, where you can live without a car just fine because everything you need can be reached safely on foot, by bike or with public transport.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > Well... yes, that is precisely what's needed to wean America off its unhealthy dependence on cars. HIGHLY disagree. If you want people off cars, you need to give them an alternative. Granted, I love cars. I would have cars whether I needed one or not, but I know I'm absolutely 100% in the minority on that issue, and like, when I say I would have cars either way, I mean fun cars. I wouldn't keep and maintain vehicles to just get around in my daily life if I didn't have to. I'd very much prefer to have just the vehicles I actually enjoy, and probably one truck and trailer to get around to tracks. Most people don't like cars and don't like driving which is why most people drive like shit. It's a chore, a required to-do item on the way to doing something they actually want to do.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > If you want people off cars, you need to give them an alternative. And to provide that infrastructure, you need space. Space that is reserved for parking cars at the moment. Just compare how much you pay per m² for the parking spot in your average city center vs the average rent mer m² that someone has to pay just for a basic shack.

I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect people with cars to pay for parking?

by jamil7 2y ago

I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect people with cars to pay for parking?

At a lot at a shopping mall, sure. At a park in the suburbs, IMO significantly less so. Especially when ostensibly my property taxes are already paying for the fucking park.

iwontberude 2y ago
We should be friends, I like the way you think.
collingreen 2y ago
I understand your frustration but I expect there are a lot of things that go into that decision. I expect adding a fee to parking makes it possible to enforce time limits, to remove squatting, and to ensure there are actually spots available. I doubt it is for the money but even if it is the park systems tend to be horribly underfunded (and often have to be held up with private donation money). A lot of our broken things are because someone with too many responsibilities and too little resources has to make a choice between a bunch of bad options and I wonder if this is similar. From your rant we know you'll pick free open spots compared to paid open spots but what if the choice is between paid open spots and no spots at all? Or worse, paid open spots or shady looking cars parked all day selling drugs? It seems like the more effective change is more parks but imagine the pushback if someone tried suggesting that! You're angry that you already pay taxes and now you have to pay again to have a special spot right at the park you can park your car in. Imagine the backlash if someone had the audacity to suggest raising your taxes for new parks. "I already pay for parks! I won't even use 95% of them! Why should I have to pay just because I'm a homeowner!" I can hear my dads voice saying some of these things and it reminds me of his complaints about funding schools with property taxes and I see how people like him pivot this into "the socialists just trying to punish the straight white men". It all makes me sad.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > From your rant we know you'll pick free open spots compared to paid open spots but what if the choice is between paid open spots and no spots at all? I wouldn't know, there weren't any free spots, open or otherwise, for consideration. > Or worse, paid open spots or shady looking cars parked all day selling drugs? I'm not sure what constitutes a shady car in your mind. I'm pretty sure no one in my neighborhood sells drugs. I know that cuz I have to leave my neighborhood to buy the drugs I want. All things being equal I'd much prefer to just buy them in stores but for some insane reason we're still carrying on the war on drugs despite it being linked, in ink and in recordings, directly to the Nixon administration wanting to prevent black people and hippies from voting, so we make do the best we can. > It seems like the more effective change is more parks I mean, we have plenty of parks. Some days they're pretty damn busy but most days they're not. I'm blessed to be a remote worker so I can also just go there (or you know, used to be able to!) and work for a bit too. > but imagine the pushback if someone tried suggesting that! You're angry that you already pay taxes and now you have to pay again to have a special spot right at the park you can park your car in. Imagine the backlash if someone had the audacity to suggest raising your taxes for new parks. I actually pay pretty high taxes for my area. The trade-off is our snow collection is extremely good and the roads are well kept, as are the parks for that matter (now marred with stupid ass parking meters but alas). I'm not opposed in the slightest to paying taxes. I participate in my local government, and I'm planning to bring this up at the next meeting because frankly I think it's bullshit that we're being asked to pay to park there when we're already funding that department. If they need more money or are running at a shortfall, that problem should be addressed with our community like everything else is, with a tax bump if required. I'm frankly infuriated that this was done not just from the principles of it but also because somehow it was done in a way that completely went under the radar of the city council I participate in. This was a huge change and should've been discussed. > "I already pay for parks! I won't even use 95% of them! Why should I have to pay just because I'm a homeowner!" Yes my position would be very unreasonable if it was even remotely this. Thankfully it's not. FWIW I also am fine with paying for our schools too.
  - collingreen 2y ago
    I agree with everything you've said here. My only contribution was that I've seen folks make these kind of choices in good faith even though it isn't directly a thing they want because it's the best of the tools in their toolboxes.

snozolli 2y ago

Not at a public location that's too far or unsafe to walk to. We should have much higher density, high quality housing with plenty of public, walkable green spaces. They calling it "15-Minute Cities" now, but I always called it Tokyo.

tuna74 2y ago
I don't remember much "walkable green spaces" in Tokyo or other cities in Japan.

rangerelf 2y ago

I don't think so; the streets are paid for by whatever vehicular taxes, the sidewalks are paid for by property taxes, there's income and sales taxes for additional financing; charging for parking is just adding salt to the wound. In fact... hear me out. It might be that, those that own the paid private parking lots in high traffic areas exacerbate the parking issues in contested areas, creating pressure on free parking areas; then they lobby to put parking meters in those free areas because "the city needs all the money it can get" (ehh, it shouldn't, it doesn't), and voilá, no more free parking anywhere. Just a thought.

mschuster91 2y ago
> and voilá, no more free parking anywhere. Well... yes, that is precisely what's needed to wean America off its unhealthy dependence on cars. Come over here to Europe, visit our cities where you can actually walk on a sidewalk, where you can live without a car just fine because everything you need can be reached safely on foot, by bike or with public transport.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > Well... yes, that is precisely what's needed to wean America off its unhealthy dependence on cars. HIGHLY disagree. If you want people off cars, you need to give them an alternative. Granted, I love cars. I would have cars whether I needed one or not, but I know I'm absolutely 100% in the minority on that issue, and like, when I say I would have cars either way, I mean fun cars. I wouldn't keep and maintain vehicles to just get around in my daily life if I didn't have to. I'd very much prefer to have just the vehicles I actually enjoy, and probably one truck and trailer to get around to tracks. Most people don't like cars and don't like driving which is why most people drive like shit. It's a chore, a required to-do item on the way to doing something they actually want to do.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > If you want people off cars, you need to give them an alternative. And to provide that infrastructure, you need space. Space that is reserved for parking cars at the moment. Just compare how much you pay per m² for the parking spot in your average city center vs the average rent mer m² that someone has to pay just for a basic shack.