8 ms·

> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American here. First-generation immigrant. Came from Germany at age 5. This misses a crucial part of th

by lisper 2y ago

> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American here. First-generation immigrant. Came from Germany at age 5. This misses a crucial part of the problem. It is considered taboo to express a love of the USA in certain social circles. In others, it is considered taboo not to express a love of the USA. The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome. Among the second group, the USA is envisioned as a set of values to which one is required to subscribe in order to be included; to include those who do not subscribe to these values would change the character of the nation to the point where it would not longer be the USA. These values include innocuous things like baseball and hot dogs, to abstract ideals like "freedom", less abstract ideals like capitalism, and quasi-religious ideals like "family values". Lately these have started to morph into religious ideals up to and including the (false) idea that an essential part of the national character is to be a Christian theocracy. So it's not that expressing a love of the USA is taboo, it's that conservatives have managed to co-opt loving the USA and make it part of their brand. Expressing love for the nation, flying the flag, singing the national anthem, etc. are nowadays seen as expressing tacit support for conservatism in general, and the Republican party and Donald Trump in particular. This is the reason that liberals avoid them. For me personally, I have always felt that some of the common rituals associated with "loving the USA" were kind of weird. Take the Pledge of Allegiance, for example. I get pledging allegiance to the nation, but to the flag? That has always struck me as bizarre. The flag is just a symbol, a token. Why would anyone pledge allegiance to a flag? But to question this, especially as a minor in a public school, turns out to be unwise.

diputsmonro 2y ago
I agree with and second every word of that. I grew up in the US during the 9/11 era, and I was just old enough to recognize the horrible nationalism that it spread through the entire country. How am I supposed to celebrate the flag of a country that invades the wrong country under false pretenses and rallies behind dumb propaganda like "freedom fries" to support it? How am I supposed to be proud of a country that chooses someone like Donald Trump as it's leader? (and is close to doing it again!) I do generally love the supposed ideals of the US, and I would like to call myself a patriot - but it is difficult to do when criticism of the US (which is the whole point of a democracy) is met with "love it or leave it" type responses from people who cover themselves in the flag. Real patriots want their country to improve via constructive criticism and change. But most conservative "patriots" in this country view any criticism as "hating America". Their "patriotism" is just fetishism for the traditions and symbols - which is why they cover every item they own with the flag. In that context, the flag and "patriotism" can be very divisive, and those who abhor the conservative culture wars here can be very reticent to create the appearance thay they stand with them.
AftHurrahWinch 2y ago
Really great comment! You noted: > The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome. Have you had the chance to talk with a 3rd group who believe that the US is malignant and think that the most moral action they can take is to undermine the state? I think there is even an American tradition of that; lots of US students are assigned excerpts from Thoreau's Walden or Civil Disobedience and from one perspective, those texts are arguments that because the US permitted slavery it was malignant and should be 'starved', of our taxes, labor, and participation. I can't and wouldn't argue that Thoreau was wrong to protest slavery by any means necessary, but I also hope that the US doesn't embrace the sort of widespread self-sabotage I see in European protest movements.
- lisper 2y ago
  > Really great comment! Thank you. > Have you had the chance to talk with a 3rd group who believe that the US is malignant and think that the most moral action they can take is to undermine the state? Yes, but I don't think those people can be said to "love the USA" under any reasonable interpretation of that phrase.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Undermining with no recognition of the ideal goal is just stupid though. Eg republicans tend to want to starve the beast of government without a good definition of what the ideal governing philosophy would be.
arrosenberg 2y ago
On your last point, the next line is literally “and to the Republic for which it stands”. Its just poetic license.
- lisper 2y ago
  Well, yeah, but it seems to put the emphasis in the wrong place, with the republic being an afterthought, secondary to the symbol. Also, being asked to pledge allegiance to anything as a minor seems weird and wrong to me. IMHO it undermines the whole concept of pledging allegiance, which should be an informed choice, not a ritualistic indoctrination.
Merad 2y ago
Pledging allegiance to the flag is a product of late 19th century sentiments that tie back to the US Civil War. This article has some backstory: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jack-david-eller-pledge-allegiance/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jack-david-eller-pledg...

by lisper 2y ago

diputsmonro 2y ago

I agree with and second every word of that. I grew up in the US during the 9/11 era, and I was just old enough to recognize the horrible nationalism that it spread through the entire country. How am I supposed to celebrate the flag of a country that invades the wrong country under false pretenses and rallies behind dumb propaganda like "freedom fries" to support it? How am I supposed to be proud of a country that chooses someone like Donald Trump as it's leader? (and is close to doing it again!) I do generally love the supposed ideals of the US, and I would like to call myself a patriot - but it is difficult to do when criticism of the US (which is the whole point of a democracy) is met with "love it or leave it" type responses from people who cover themselves in the flag. Real patriots want their country to improve via constructive criticism and change. But most conservative "patriots" in this country view any criticism as "hating America". Their "patriotism" is just fetishism for the traditions and symbols - which is why they cover every item they own with the flag. In that context, the flag and "patriotism" can be very divisive, and those who abhor the conservative culture wars here can be very reticent to create the appearance thay they stand with them.

AftHurrahWinch 2y ago

Really great comment! You noted: > The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome. Have you had the chance to talk with a 3rd group who believe that the US is malignant and think that the most moral action they can take is to undermine the state? I think there is even an American tradition of that; lots of US students are assigned excerpts from Thoreau's Walden or Civil Disobedience and from one perspective, those texts are arguments that because the US permitted slavery it was malignant and should be 'starved', of our taxes, labor, and participation. I can't and wouldn't argue that Thoreau was wrong to protest slavery by any means necessary, but I also hope that the US doesn't embrace the sort of widespread self-sabotage I see in European protest movements.

lisper 2y ago
> Really great comment! Thank you. > Have you had the chance to talk with a 3rd group who believe that the US is malignant and think that the most moral action they can take is to undermine the state? Yes, but I don't think those people can be said to "love the USA" under any reasonable interpretation of that phrase.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Undermining with no recognition of the ideal goal is just stupid though. Eg republicans tend to want to starve the beast of government without a good definition of what the ideal governing philosophy would be.

arrosenberg 2y ago

On your last point, the next line is literally “and to the Republic for which it stands”. Its just poetic license.

lisper 2y ago
Well, yeah, but it seems to put the emphasis in the wrong place, with the republic being an afterthought, secondary to the symbol. Also, being asked to pledge allegiance to anything as a minor seems weird and wrong to me. IMHO it undermines the whole concept of pledging allegiance, which should be an informed choice, not a ritualistic indoctrination.

Merad 2y ago

Pledging allegiance to the flag is a product of late 19th century sentiments that tie back to the US Civil War. This article has some backstory: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jack-david-eller-pledge-allegiance/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jack-david-eller-pledg...