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The books the authors cite are great and worth reading. Some personal observations: - The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now. There are lots of reasons

The books the authors cite are great and worth reading. Some personal observations: - The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now. There are lots of reasons for this. But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. - People put a lot of effort into work, and work is becoming more transactional. No more "life-long employment with the buddies" kind of situation. - America went from poor to rich, but still behaves like a developing economy. Public healthcare + public education + low-income housing availability are poor, while there's a big class of people who can afford private education + private healthcare + McMansions. I think this deteriorates the idea of "we're all in this together" because there's such unequal opportunity. - Wars used to be a way to unify a country, but we're in the era of proxy wars - which don't have the same aligning effect.

silverquiet 2y ago
I don't disagree with the comment, but whenever people talk about a "love of the USA", I always want to ask what is it that you love? To stereotype a bit, I'm guessing that it will not be the federal government (despite a strong reverence for the flag of that government).
- philip1209 2y ago
  The deeper issue is that a pessimism about our country will become self-fulfilling. So, it's not useful. I think the USA is amazing in that it attracts the most ambitious people in the world, provides relative stability for them to work and live, and that it has managed to create such a stable society given the heterogeneous nature of its culture. It has a lot of problems, but I'd much rather be here than in the communist former-country my mom was born in.
  - Mountain_Skies 2y ago
    Ever consider that perhaps cramming a community full of the most ambitious people in the world might have a bunch of negative consequences for that community?
    - batshit_beaver 2y ago
      Surely it has positive consequences too?
- stnmtn 2y ago
  The absolute natural beauty and diversity of geography that the USA has is one of the things that make me love it. The "newness" of USA compared to Europe is also something that I really like about it.
- filoleg 2y ago
  I guess it is about the spirit of it, just all the incongruent different groups of people coming together and making something greater than the individual sum of them happen. And just the whole grander idea of forging your own destiny, no matter how risky the odds are. Sure, it flies in the face of harsh reality quite often, but that’s not the point. And we can definitely gripe about current immigration policies. And of course, that spirit doesn’t feel like it holds true in a big chunk of the US. But to me personally, that’s why NYC feels sort of magical. It’s that whole idea solidified in flesh. As an immigrant, I can tell you that my hypothetical future in my old country was doomed from the start. The US, with all its imperfections and flaws, let me do my own thing and carve my own path from nothing (parents working minimum wage, so basically zero connections and funds). All while making me feel more at home than my old country ever did in every single way (from interactions with people to absolutely any other aspect of my life). Again, this isn’t to discount tons of issues that the US has (just like any other large country would). However, I just struggle to think of any other country where I could’ve ended up where I am right now, as an immigrant. And that, to me personally, is what the (idealized) spirit of the US is all about.
- carapace 2y ago
  There's no taboo, that's ridiculous. I love the US-of-A and I don't care who knows it. God bless America, and apple pie and moms. I love the people, even though we're mostly stupid and crazy. I love the land, even though it's drenched in the blood of the people of the First Nations and of each other. I love that we fight to repudiate and destroy the evil of slavery, even though we aren't done yet. And yeah, I even love the Federal Government. Sure it's a gnarly bureaucracy that makes mistakes, but most of the time it pretty much works. And there are so many really cool bits, like the USGS. And the vast majority of the people in the Federal workforce are decent folk just doing their best. So yeah, we have a lot of problems, but we're doing our best and the story isn't finished yet. I love the USA. (I also love the rest of the world too. It's not an either-or thing.)
- veryfancy 2y ago
  Everyone’s got a basket of things they can love or hate about this place when they’re in the mood to love or to hate. That’s something to love, I think.
- CitrusFruits 2y ago
  I'll preface this with saying there are other countries that do many of the following things I say better, but there are many many countries that do things worse. Additionally, I've found most people who have trouble loving the U.S.A. haven't had the privilege of traveling to any of the 130+ countries of the world that have a GDP per capita of less than $15K. Those countries can be awesome in their own right, but they also can help highlight how privileged the U.S. is in many areas. I love the USA because of its infrastructure, it's natural beauty, the principles of its governmental structure, the diversity of people (and food!), how it provides opportunity for people who want that opportunity, for its strong civil rights, and for its natural resources. We can do better to protect and grow all those things I mentioned, but it doesn't mean they don't exist in the first place.
- samatman 2y ago
  It's the flag of the nation. Not the flag of the federal government. There are symbols which are more directly associated with the government, such as the Great Seal of the United States. You will see patriotic expressions involving that symbol rather less, although the bald eagle, our national totem, is quite popular. Some countries have a separate state and civil flag. The United States is not among them. If you're asking why Americans love our nation, I don't know how to answer that question.
- snozolli 2y ago
  I always want to ask what is it that you love? - Public lands. Most states have National Parks in them. Every state has state parks. These generally give enormous freedom of enjoyment to vast areas of land and are accessible to most. - General freedom. We've all seen videos of abusive cops, but the fact is that's still rare. If you want to launch a business, you'll likely be able to find a location, understand regulations, and form the legal entity without paying off officials. We have corruption, but it's generally at high levels and invisible to the general public, so you don't feel the pervasive effects. - Economy. Sure, I miss the 90s tech boom, but the US has the most advanced tax system in the world, and a highly effective banking system that spurs the economy. It's far from perfect, but it's better than a whole lot, and most people take it for granted. I think we peaked in many ways between 1995 and 2012, but if we can clean up our act and make it through the new era of Robber Barons and foreign interference, we'll be in a really good place again. Edit: - ADA. To my knowledge, no other county has as good of regulations benefiting the handicapped and disabled. From accessible businesses and buses to readable signage to minimum doorway widths in homes.
- anon291 2y ago
  I love the people of the United States; our shared values; our shared culture. I view the United States as more than just an ideology as outlined in our constitution but also a distinct group of people with a distinct culture with a shared past and a shared future. This is why I bristle when people get upset by terms like American exceptionalism. Yes, America has a unique culture. America is also objectively superlative, whether it's our wealth, military capability, longevity as a democracy, etc. Uniqueness + superlative = exceptional. When people disagree, I'm left wondering what they disagree with. Either they disagree with the superlatives, in which case, I question their grasp on reality. Or they question the uniqueness of American culture, at which point my social monkey brain tells me to shun them.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    I assume nearly every culture believes that they are uniquely superlative in some way though; ironically this seems like a highly conserved quality of human psychology. If anything, a lot of the praise of America seems to be the federation of culture; I’ve heard it said the that it is not one country, but fifty different ones.
    - anon291 2y ago
      I mean that's totally fair. Most countries and cultures are exceptional in some way. That does not deny american exceptionalism at all.
hot_gril 2y ago
"it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA" is not really true in most of the country. I moved out of one of the few places where it is.
dukeyukey 2y ago
Speaking as a non-American who visited for the first time last year: > But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American flags _everywhere_' Like seriously, I visited both liberal areas (Seattle) and conservative areas (Spokane's surrounds) and y'all patriotic as _fuck_. > Wars used to be a way to unify a country... Also because the US is just not threatened by anyone. I'd hope that going back to being the Arsenal of Democracy for Ukraine (and maybe Taiwan or South Korea if things go bad) would've tied the US together, but man I was wrong there.
- Balgair 2y ago
  > I'd hope that going back to being the Arsenal of Democracy for Ukraine (and maybe Taiwan or South Korea if things go bad) would've tied the US together, but man I was wrong there. I mean, it's not like we need to be rolling out a B-29 every minute or an aircraft carrier a week to defeat Russia there. Just cleaning out some of the stock from the 80's held them off for months. Logistically, the war in Ukraine just isn't very taxing to maintain a psuedo-stalemate. If anything, NATO+ wants to keep this ulcer open for as long as it can in Russia, bleed them white.
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    At a certain point (probably to a large extent already) Ukraine will simply run out of manpower. Demographically it was in a very poor state to begin with to such a degree they had to keep the MINIMUM age of conscription at 27 and lowered it to 25 a few months ago. There were only ~2.6 million men aged 15 to 30 and another 3 million in their 30s back in 2022. Around 0.6-0.8 million Ukrainian men have left the country for the EU (18-60, but I assume it's highly skewed towards lower ages). A significant proportion (probably the majority) of those that remain in the country are not particularly motivated, capable or otherwise keen about going to the frontline. It's hard to tell but looking at estimates > 150k have died or been severely wounded and presumably a several times more suffered lighter injuries. This isn't WW1/2. Poorly trained and/or highly unmotivated men are not very combat effective and mobilizing such a large proportion of population as back then is not feasible (especially considering that men in their 30s and 40s have been doing most of the fighting). So how long do you think Ukraine can hold out if we extrapolate the casualties rates from the last 12-24 months or so? By the time the West fully ramps up military production it might be too late.
KittenInABox 2y ago
> - America went from poor to rich, but still behaves like a developing economy. Public healthcare + public education + low-income housing availability are poor, while there's a big class of people who can afford private education + private healthcare + McMansions. I think this deteriorates the idea of "we're all in this together" because there's such unequal opportunity. America has had a long history of unequal opportunity. It's kind of founded with unequal opportunity (slavery) and continued to shoot itself in the foot in order to ensure inequality (closing public schools instead of allowing integrated schools is why we have a rise of private schooling to begin with, HOAs existed primarily to ensure the community could enforce that no one could allow a black family to move in by selling their property to blacks). I think of America as a country that is constantly being challenged with the ideals it claims as having against the society it builds which falls short of those ideals. But I don't think this inequality has to do with the recent youth mental health crisis... America has endeavored to be more and more equal by the year.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 2y ago
> The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now This is why we need to pursue annexation by Mexico, so we can finally be a country with some culture.
- trallnag 2y ago
  Looking at the demographics of the USA you just have to wait a few more years
AmericanChopper 2y ago
> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. Nearly every bullet point the article listed for what makes a strong community was basically just a descriptor for cultural homogeneity, which also touches on a rather controversial taboo. This sort of critique of diversity would be considered hate speech by some.
- AftHurrahWinch 2y ago
  > This sort of critique of diversity would be considered hate speech by some. How wonderful that we have the diversity of thought to find someone who will object to anything, and how fortunate that we have mechanisms to overrule and ignore them.
ativzzz 2y ago
> But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA I don't agree. Every sporting event still plays the national anthem and often has soldiers or military involvement or mentions I see US flags all the time, all over the place. There are certain forms of "love" of the USA that are more politically one-sided that may be more taboo if you live in an area where most people are on the other side.
- parpfish 2y ago
  there are a lot of people that like the national anthem and fly flags, but that's for a distinct slice of america. one tribe likes flags and overt patriotism, the other side does not. if i see a person with a flag sticker on their car, i can probably guess a lot of their unrelated political opinions
  - apsurd 2y ago
    I get what you mean, and i experience the same. but it's on you/us to consciously not make that assumption. Else we're complicit in the polarization.
- pphysch 2y ago
  To me there is a profound difference between the flag-waving, corporate, pinko-hating, anti-social pseudo-patriotism exemplified by Reagan, which is still popular today, and actual patriotism. "Patriotism" as superficial brand-loyalty versus patriotism as lifelong civil-service.
lisper 2y ago
> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American here. First-generation immigrant. Came from Germany at age 5. This misses a crucial part of the problem. It is considered taboo to express a love of the USA in certain social circles. In others, it is considered taboo not to express a love of the USA. The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome. Among the second group, the USA is envisioned as a set of values to which one is required to subscribe in order to be included; to include those who do not subscribe to these values would change the character of the nation to the point where it would not longer be the USA. These values include innocuous things like baseball and hot dogs, to abstract ideals like "freedom", less abstract ideals like capitalism, and quasi-religious ideals like "family values". Lately these have started to morph into religious ideals up to and including the (false) idea that an essential part of the national character is to be a Christian theocracy. So it's not that expressing a love of the USA is taboo, it's that conservatives have managed to co-opt loving the USA and make it part of their brand. Expressing love for the nation, flying the flag, singing the national anthem, etc. are nowadays seen as expressing tacit support for conservatism in general, and the Republican party and Donald Trump in particular. This is the reason that liberals avoid them. For me personally, I have always felt that some of the common rituals associated with "loving the USA" were kind of weird. Take the Pledge of Allegiance, for example. I get pledging allegiance to the nation, but to the flag? That has always struck me as bizarre. The flag is just a symbol, a token. Why would anyone pledge allegiance to a flag? But to question this, especially as a minor in a public school, turns out to be unwise.
- diputsmonro 2y ago
  I agree with and second every word of that. I grew up in the US during the 9/11 era, and I was just old enough to recognize the horrible nationalism that it spread through the entire country. How am I supposed to celebrate the flag of a country that invades the wrong country under false pretenses and rallies behind dumb propaganda like "freedom fries" to support it? How am I supposed to be proud of a country that chooses someone like Donald Trump as it's leader? (and is close to doing it again!) I do generally love the supposed ideals of the US, and I would like to call myself a patriot - but it is difficult to do when criticism of the US (which is the whole point of a democracy) is met with "love it or leave it" type responses from people who cover themselves in the flag. Real patriots want their country to improve via constructive criticism and change. But most conservative "patriots" in this country view any criticism as "hating America". Their "patriotism" is just fetishism for the traditions and symbols - which is why they cover every item they own with the flag. In that context, the flag and "patriotism" can be very divisive, and those who abhor the conservative culture wars here can be very reticent to create the appearance thay they stand with them.
MisterBastahrd 2y ago
The last war that directly affected this country in any conceivable manner was WWII with Pearl Harbor, and that never reached the mainland. Before that, you needed the Civil War. Sending young, poor bastards off to die to protect the profits of their economic betters is a pathetic way to "unify a country."
colechristensen 2y ago
>The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now. The US _always_ lacked a cohesive cultural identity, it has always been manifold. Basically the rise of television and movies post-WWII-ish depicted a single culture but it was just excluding everyone except essentially WASPs. This had nothing to do with reality and was just racism. Before the world wars there was even a considerable amount of greater cultural diversity among European immigrants and descendants, German being spoken very widely across the country and quite a bit more of people retaining the culture of their ancestors.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
anon291 2y ago
> But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. Only in some circles.

silverquiet 2y ago

I don't disagree with the comment, but whenever people talk about a "love of the USA", I always want to ask what is it that you love? To stereotype a bit, I'm guessing that it will not be the federal government (despite a strong reverence for the flag of that government).

philip1209 2y ago
The deeper issue is that a pessimism about our country will become self-fulfilling. So, it's not useful. I think the USA is amazing in that it attracts the most ambitious people in the world, provides relative stability for them to work and live, and that it has managed to create such a stable society given the heterogeneous nature of its culture. It has a lot of problems, but I'd much rather be here than in the communist former-country my mom was born in.
- Mountain_Skies 2y ago
  Ever consider that perhaps cramming a community full of the most ambitious people in the world might have a bunch of negative consequences for that community?
  - batshit_beaver 2y ago
    Surely it has positive consequences too?
stnmtn 2y ago
The absolute natural beauty and diversity of geography that the USA has is one of the things that make me love it. The "newness" of USA compared to Europe is also something that I really like about it.
filoleg 2y ago
I guess it is about the spirit of it, just all the incongruent different groups of people coming together and making something greater than the individual sum of them happen. And just the whole grander idea of forging your own destiny, no matter how risky the odds are. Sure, it flies in the face of harsh reality quite often, but that’s not the point. And we can definitely gripe about current immigration policies. And of course, that spirit doesn’t feel like it holds true in a big chunk of the US. But to me personally, that’s why NYC feels sort of magical. It’s that whole idea solidified in flesh. As an immigrant, I can tell you that my hypothetical future in my old country was doomed from the start. The US, with all its imperfections and flaws, let me do my own thing and carve my own path from nothing (parents working minimum wage, so basically zero connections and funds). All while making me feel more at home than my old country ever did in every single way (from interactions with people to absolutely any other aspect of my life). Again, this isn’t to discount tons of issues that the US has (just like any other large country would). However, I just struggle to think of any other country where I could’ve ended up where I am right now, as an immigrant. And that, to me personally, is what the (idealized) spirit of the US is all about.
carapace 2y ago
There's no taboo, that's ridiculous. I love the US-of-A and I don't care who knows it. God bless America, and apple pie and moms. I love the people, even though we're mostly stupid and crazy. I love the land, even though it's drenched in the blood of the people of the First Nations and of each other. I love that we fight to repudiate and destroy the evil of slavery, even though we aren't done yet. And yeah, I even love the Federal Government. Sure it's a gnarly bureaucracy that makes mistakes, but most of the time it pretty much works. And there are so many really cool bits, like the USGS. And the vast majority of the people in the Federal workforce are decent folk just doing their best. So yeah, we have a lot of problems, but we're doing our best and the story isn't finished yet. I love the USA. (I also love the rest of the world too. It's not an either-or thing.)
veryfancy 2y ago
Everyone’s got a basket of things they can love or hate about this place when they’re in the mood to love or to hate. That’s something to love, I think.
CitrusFruits 2y ago
I'll preface this with saying there are other countries that do many of the following things I say better, but there are many many countries that do things worse. Additionally, I've found most people who have trouble loving the U.S.A. haven't had the privilege of traveling to any of the 130+ countries of the world that have a GDP per capita of less than $15K. Those countries can be awesome in their own right, but they also can help highlight how privileged the U.S. is in many areas. I love the USA because of its infrastructure, it's natural beauty, the principles of its governmental structure, the diversity of people (and food!), how it provides opportunity for people who want that opportunity, for its strong civil rights, and for its natural resources. We can do better to protect and grow all those things I mentioned, but it doesn't mean they don't exist in the first place.
samatman 2y ago
It's the flag of the nation. Not the flag of the federal government. There are symbols which are more directly associated with the government, such as the Great Seal of the United States. You will see patriotic expressions involving that symbol rather less, although the bald eagle, our national totem, is quite popular. Some countries have a separate state and civil flag. The United States is not among them. If you're asking why Americans love our nation, I don't know how to answer that question.
snozolli 2y ago
I always want to ask what is it that you love? - Public lands. Most states have National Parks in them. Every state has state parks. These generally give enormous freedom of enjoyment to vast areas of land and are accessible to most. - General freedom. We've all seen videos of abusive cops, but the fact is that's still rare. If you want to launch a business, you'll likely be able to find a location, understand regulations, and form the legal entity without paying off officials. We have corruption, but it's generally at high levels and invisible to the general public, so you don't feel the pervasive effects. - Economy. Sure, I miss the 90s tech boom, but the US has the most advanced tax system in the world, and a highly effective banking system that spurs the economy. It's far from perfect, but it's better than a whole lot, and most people take it for granted. I think we peaked in many ways between 1995 and 2012, but if we can clean up our act and make it through the new era of Robber Barons and foreign interference, we'll be in a really good place again. Edit: - ADA. To my knowledge, no other county has as good of regulations benefiting the handicapped and disabled. From accessible businesses and buses to readable signage to minimum doorway widths in homes.
anon291 2y ago
I love the people of the United States; our shared values; our shared culture. I view the United States as more than just an ideology as outlined in our constitution but also a distinct group of people with a distinct culture with a shared past and a shared future. This is why I bristle when people get upset by terms like American exceptionalism. Yes, America has a unique culture. America is also objectively superlative, whether it's our wealth, military capability, longevity as a democracy, etc. Uniqueness + superlative = exceptional. When people disagree, I'm left wondering what they disagree with. Either they disagree with the superlatives, in which case, I question their grasp on reality. Or they question the uniqueness of American culture, at which point my social monkey brain tells me to shun them.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  I assume nearly every culture believes that they are uniquely superlative in some way though; ironically this seems like a highly conserved quality of human psychology. If anything, a lot of the praise of America seems to be the federation of culture; I’ve heard it said the that it is not one country, but fifty different ones.
  - anon291 2y ago
    I mean that's totally fair. Most countries and cultures are exceptional in some way. That does not deny american exceptionalism at all.

hot_gril 2y ago

"it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA" is not really true in most of the country. I moved out of one of the few places where it is.

dukeyukey 2y ago

Speaking as a non-American who visited for the first time last year: > But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American flags _everywhere_' Like seriously, I visited both liberal areas (Seattle) and conservative areas (Spokane's surrounds) and y'all patriotic as _fuck_. > Wars used to be a way to unify a country... Also because the US is just not threatened by anyone. I'd hope that going back to being the Arsenal of Democracy for Ukraine (and maybe Taiwan or South Korea if things go bad) would've tied the US together, but man I was wrong there.

Balgair 2y ago
> I'd hope that going back to being the Arsenal of Democracy for Ukraine (and maybe Taiwan or South Korea if things go bad) would've tied the US together, but man I was wrong there. I mean, it's not like we need to be rolling out a B-29 every minute or an aircraft carrier a week to defeat Russia there. Just cleaning out some of the stock from the 80's held them off for months. Logistically, the war in Ukraine just isn't very taxing to maintain a psuedo-stalemate. If anything, NATO+ wants to keep this ulcer open for as long as it can in Russia, bleed them white.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  At a certain point (probably to a large extent already) Ukraine will simply run out of manpower. Demographically it was in a very poor state to begin with to such a degree they had to keep the MINIMUM age of conscription at 27 and lowered it to 25 a few months ago. There were only ~2.6 million men aged 15 to 30 and another 3 million in their 30s back in 2022. Around 0.6-0.8 million Ukrainian men have left the country for the EU (18-60, but I assume it's highly skewed towards lower ages). A significant proportion (probably the majority) of those that remain in the country are not particularly motivated, capable or otherwise keen about going to the frontline. It's hard to tell but looking at estimates > 150k have died or been severely wounded and presumably a several times more suffered lighter injuries. This isn't WW1/2. Poorly trained and/or highly unmotivated men are not very combat effective and mobilizing such a large proportion of population as back then is not feasible (especially considering that men in their 30s and 40s have been doing most of the fighting). So how long do you think Ukraine can hold out if we extrapolate the casualties rates from the last 12-24 months or so? By the time the West fully ramps up military production it might be too late.

KittenInABox 2y ago

> - America went from poor to rich, but still behaves like a developing economy. Public healthcare + public education + low-income housing availability are poor, while there's a big class of people who can afford private education + private healthcare + McMansions. I think this deteriorates the idea of "we're all in this together" because there's such unequal opportunity. America has had a long history of unequal opportunity. It's kind of founded with unequal opportunity (slavery) and continued to shoot itself in the foot in order to ensure inequality (closing public schools instead of allowing integrated schools is why we have a rise of private schooling to begin with, HOAs existed primarily to ensure the community could enforce that no one could allow a black family to move in by selling their property to blacks). I think of America as a country that is constantly being challenged with the ideals it claims as having against the society it builds which falls short of those ideals. But I don't think this inequality has to do with the recent youth mental health crisis... America has endeavored to be more and more equal by the year.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

jeffbee 2y ago

> The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now This is why we need to pursue annexation by Mexico, so we can finally be a country with some culture.

trallnag 2y ago
Looking at the demographics of the USA you just have to wait a few more years

AmericanChopper 2y ago

> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. Nearly every bullet point the article listed for what makes a strong community was basically just a descriptor for cultural homogeneity, which also touches on a rather controversial taboo. This sort of critique of diversity would be considered hate speech by some.

AftHurrahWinch 2y ago
> This sort of critique of diversity would be considered hate speech by some. How wonderful that we have the diversity of thought to find someone who will object to anything, and how fortunate that we have mechanisms to overrule and ignore them.

ativzzz 2y ago

> But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA I don't agree. Every sporting event still plays the national anthem and often has soldiers or military involvement or mentions I see US flags all the time, all over the place. There are certain forms of "love" of the USA that are more politically one-sided that may be more taboo if you live in an area where most people are on the other side.

parpfish 2y ago
there are a lot of people that like the national anthem and fly flags, but that's for a distinct slice of america. one tribe likes flags and overt patriotism, the other side does not. if i see a person with a flag sticker on their car, i can probably guess a lot of their unrelated political opinions
- apsurd 2y ago
  I get what you mean, and i experience the same. but it's on you/us to consciously not make that assumption. Else we're complicit in the polarization.
pphysch 2y ago
To me there is a profound difference between the flag-waving, corporate, pinko-hating, anti-social pseudo-patriotism exemplified by Reagan, which is still popular today, and actual patriotism. "Patriotism" as superficial brand-loyalty versus patriotism as lifelong civil-service.

lisper 2y ago

> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American here. First-generation immigrant. Came from Germany at age 5. This misses a crucial part of the problem. It is considered taboo to express a love of the USA in certain social circles. In others, it is considered taboo not to express a love of the USA. The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome. Among the second group, the USA is envisioned as a set of values to which one is required to subscribe in order to be included; to include those who do not subscribe to these values would change the character of the nation to the point where it would not longer be the USA. These values include innocuous things like baseball and hot dogs, to abstract ideals like "freedom", less abstract ideals like capitalism, and quasi-religious ideals like "family values". Lately these have started to morph into religious ideals up to and including the (false) idea that an essential part of the national character is to be a Christian theocracy. So it's not that expressing a love of the USA is taboo, it's that conservatives have managed to co-opt loving the USA and make it part of their brand. Expressing love for the nation, flying the flag, singing the national anthem, etc. are nowadays seen as expressing tacit support for conservatism in general, and the Republican party and Donald Trump in particular. This is the reason that liberals avoid them. For me personally, I have always felt that some of the common rituals associated with "loving the USA" were kind of weird. Take the Pledge of Allegiance, for example. I get pledging allegiance to the nation, but to the flag? That has always struck me as bizarre. The flag is just a symbol, a token. Why would anyone pledge allegiance to a flag? But to question this, especially as a minor in a public school, turns out to be unwise.

diputsmonro 2y ago
I agree with and second every word of that. I grew up in the US during the 9/11 era, and I was just old enough to recognize the horrible nationalism that it spread through the entire country. How am I supposed to celebrate the flag of a country that invades the wrong country under false pretenses and rallies behind dumb propaganda like "freedom fries" to support it? How am I supposed to be proud of a country that chooses someone like Donald Trump as it's leader? (and is close to doing it again!) I do generally love the supposed ideals of the US, and I would like to call myself a patriot - but it is difficult to do when criticism of the US (which is the whole point of a democracy) is met with "love it or leave it" type responses from people who cover themselves in the flag. Real patriots want their country to improve via constructive criticism and change. But most conservative "patriots" in this country view any criticism as "hating America". Their "patriotism" is just fetishism for the traditions and symbols - which is why they cover every item they own with the flag. In that context, the flag and "patriotism" can be very divisive, and those who abhor the conservative culture wars here can be very reticent to create the appearance thay they stand with them.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

The last war that directly affected this country in any conceivable manner was WWII with Pearl Harbor, and that never reached the mainland. Before that, you needed the Civil War. Sending young, poor bastards off to die to protect the profits of their economic betters is a pathetic way to "unify a country."

colechristensen 2y ago

>The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now. The US _always_ lacked a cohesive cultural identity, it has always been manifold. Basically the rise of television and movies post-WWII-ish depicted a single culture but it was just excluding everyone except essentially WASPs. This had nothing to do with reality and was just racism. Before the world wars there was even a considerable amount of greater cultural diversity among European immigrants and descendants, German being spoken very widely across the country and quite a bit more of people retaining the culture of their ancestors.

deleted 2y ago

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anon291 2y ago

> But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. Only in some circles.