4 ms·

rapage was not limited to interbreeding, you have to rethink your assumptions

jjk166 2y ago
For anyone curious, there is absolutely no evidence of coordinated violence between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens [0], and it is believed that war developed during the Neolithic when well defined territories became more important. There's evidence of multiple instances of interbreeding, with neanderthal DNA exclusively entering the sapien gene pool through the female line, and sapien DNA exclusively entering the neanderthal gene pool through the male line. If it was just "to the victor go the spoils" you'd expect a mix as sometimes one side would win and sometimes the other over the thousands of years. We know for a fact that it couldn't have been just "sapiens always won" because Sapiens entered europe, interbred enough to completely replace the Neanderthal y chromosome, and then died out about 30,000 years before the second expansion which succeeded. The evidence is much better explained by only male sapiens-female neanderthal couplings producing fertile offspring, which is a common thing for hybrids. [0] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/did-ancient-humans-ever-go-to-war-with-neanderthals https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/did-ancient-hu...
- linearrust 2y ago
  > For anyone curious, there is absolutely no evidence of coordinated violence between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens [0] 'coordinated'. > and it is believed that war developed during the Neolithic when well defined territories became more important. What about simple tribal violence? > If it was just "to the victor go the spoils" you'd expect a mix as sometimes one side would win and sometimes the other over the thousands of years. Two examples refutes your assertion. In the US/Canada/Australia, the natives won a few and yet the male native lineage has been effectively wiped out. Almost all the interbreeding between the europeans and natives was between european males and native females. Mexico is another example. About 65% of the male Y chromosome is european while almost 100% of the female lineage is native. Mexico never experienced whole mass european immigration like the US, Canada or Australia. With only a tiny spanish population, over 400 years, the spanish male lineage has come to dominate mexico. > The evidence is much better explained by only male sapiens-female neanderthal couplings producing fertile offspring, which is a common thing for hybrids. Except that modern homo-sapiens completely displaced the neanderthals. If it was simply a matter of innocent hybridization, neanderthals would still exist as they breed better with each other than hybrids do. Not to mention most animals have an innate aversion to hybridization. It only tends to happen as a last resort in the wild.
  - StopTheWorld 2y ago
    > What about simple tribal violence? Is there any evidence of any tribes whatsoever existing over 20,000 years ago? All the evidence points against it. There was no tribal violence 47,000 years ago because there were no tribes!
    - linearrust 2y ago
      > Is there any evidence of any tribes whatsoever existing over 20,000 years ago? Hunter gatherer tribes. > There was no tribal violence 47,000 years ago because there were no tribes! Unless you are arguing semantics, yes there were. Tribes and tribal violence.
      - StopTheWorld 2y ago
        > Hunter gatherer tribes Hunter gatherer bands. There's no evidence of any tribes 20,000 years ago. > Unless you are arguing semantics, yes there were. Tribes and tribal violence. There is no evidence of any tribes existing 47,000 years ago. Insofar as tribes, and tribal violence, the OP mentioned them, which is wrong in that time frame, semantics or not.
        keepamovin 2y ago
        Well this spawned a very lengthy multi day discussion! Hahaha! :)
    - defrost 2y ago
      Take a guided tour with Clinton from Ngurrangga Tours as you travel through the Murujuga National Park. With the highest concentration of rock art in the world, rediscover the petroglyphs (rock art) created by the Yaburrara (Northern Ngarluma) people. The rock art has been dated back to before the ice age ended and is approx. over 40,000 years old and there is up to 1 million rock art images scattered across the entire Burrup Peninsula and Dampier Archipelago. As you venture down the creek at Deep Gorge, surrounded by huge granite boulders and Currajong trees, marvel at the petroglyphs etched into the rocks, and gain an appreciation of the Jaburara Tribe’s self sufficient lifestyle. Shell middens provide evidence of their seafood diets; the granite boulders would have offered shelter from the harsh weather conditions; and the creek, now mostly dry, would have been their only water supply. ~ https://therangeskarratha.com.au/explore/rock-art https://therangeskarratha.com.au/explore/rock-art And all the other aboriginal sites across Australia that are older than 20,000 years. And the sites tracking back toward Africa that line the human expansion outwards. What kind of world do you live in that has denied you access to evidence of early human existence?

For anyone curious, there is absolutely no evidence of coordinated violence between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens [0], and it is believed that war developed during the Neolithic when well defined territories became more important. There's evidence of multiple instances of interbreeding, with neanderthal DNA exclusively entering the sapien gene pool through the female line, and sapien DNA exclusively entering the neanderthal gene pool through the male line. If it was just "to the victor go the spoils" you'd expect a mix as sometimes one side would win and sometimes the other over the thousands of years. We know for a fact that it couldn't have been just "sapiens always won" because Sapiens entered europe, interbred enough to completely replace the Neanderthal y chromosome, and then died out about 30,000 years before the second expansion which succeeded. The evidence is much better explained by only male sapiens-female neanderthal couplings producing fertile offspring, which is a common thing for hybrids. [0] https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/did-ancient-humans-ever-go-to-war-with-neanderthals https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/did-ancient-hu...

linearrust 2y ago
> For anyone curious, there is absolutely no evidence of coordinated violence between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens [0] 'coordinated'. > and it is believed that war developed during the Neolithic when well defined territories became more important. What about simple tribal violence? > If it was just "to the victor go the spoils" you'd expect a mix as sometimes one side would win and sometimes the other over the thousands of years. Two examples refutes your assertion. In the US/Canada/Australia, the natives won a few and yet the male native lineage has been effectively wiped out. Almost all the interbreeding between the europeans and natives was between european males and native females. Mexico is another example. About 65% of the male Y chromosome is european while almost 100% of the female lineage is native. Mexico never experienced whole mass european immigration like the US, Canada or Australia. With only a tiny spanish population, over 400 years, the spanish male lineage has come to dominate mexico. > The evidence is much better explained by only male sapiens-female neanderthal couplings producing fertile offspring, which is a common thing for hybrids. Except that modern homo-sapiens completely displaced the neanderthals. If it was simply a matter of innocent hybridization, neanderthals would still exist as they breed better with each other than hybrids do. Not to mention most animals have an innate aversion to hybridization. It only tends to happen as a last resort in the wild.
- StopTheWorld 2y ago
  > What about simple tribal violence? Is there any evidence of any tribes whatsoever existing over 20,000 years ago? All the evidence points against it. There was no tribal violence 47,000 years ago because there were no tribes!
  - linearrust 2y ago
    > Is there any evidence of any tribes whatsoever existing over 20,000 years ago? Hunter gatherer tribes. > There was no tribal violence 47,000 years ago because there were no tribes! Unless you are arguing semantics, yes there were. Tribes and tribal violence.
    - StopTheWorld 2y ago
      > Hunter gatherer tribes Hunter gatherer bands. There's no evidence of any tribes 20,000 years ago. > Unless you are arguing semantics, yes there were. Tribes and tribal violence. There is no evidence of any tribes existing 47,000 years ago. Insofar as tribes, and tribal violence, the OP mentioned them, which is wrong in that time frame, semantics or not.
      - keepamovin 2y ago
        Well this spawned a very lengthy multi day discussion! Hahaha! :)
  - defrost 2y ago
    Take a guided tour with Clinton from Ngurrangga Tours as you travel through the Murujuga National Park. With the highest concentration of rock art in the world, rediscover the petroglyphs (rock art) created by the Yaburrara (Northern Ngarluma) people. The rock art has been dated back to before the ice age ended and is approx. over 40,000 years old and there is up to 1 million rock art images scattered across the entire Burrup Peninsula and Dampier Archipelago. As you venture down the creek at Deep Gorge, surrounded by huge granite boulders and Currajong trees, marvel at the petroglyphs etched into the rocks, and gain an appreciation of the Jaburara Tribe’s self sufficient lifestyle. Shell middens provide evidence of their seafood diets; the granite boulders would have offered shelter from the harsh weather conditions; and the creek, now mostly dry, would have been their only water supply. ~ https://therangeskarratha.com.au/explore/rock-art https://therangeskarratha.com.au/explore/rock-art And all the other aboriginal sites across Australia that are older than 20,000 years. And the sites tracking back toward Africa that line the human expansion outwards. What kind of world do you live in that has denied you access to evidence of early human existence?