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I'm way more interest robotic diagnosis than robotic treatment. It's so hard to trust dentists have your interest above their financial interest

by elif 2y ago

taneq 2y ago
If the robot's decision-making process is transparent then 100% agreed. I just know, however, that (at least as long as state-of-the-art 'AI' consists of huge models trained on big data) the advice given by any free-on-the-internet bot will have built-in biases towards paid recommendations and similarly insidious things.
xhkkffbf 2y ago
What makes you think that the robot won't have a financial interest? The company that makes it will want a profit. The dentist that buys it wants to make a profit. If there's an AI under the hood, it might decide that someone needs to pay for its electricity habit. That being said, I agree that it's a difficult part of the fee-for-service model.
idiotsecant 2y ago
That's what second opinions are for. Not sure how a robot helps this.
sunjieming 2y ago
Whenever there's information asymmetry that financially benefits one party you have to be cautious. It's been shocking how many times people I know have sought second opinions on recommended dental work only to be given a completely different recommended treatment that's thousands of dollars cheaper. Example from a friend: Dentist 1 - you need ten fillings today! Dentist 2 - You have a few risk spots but let's just keep an eye on it. Went with the second recommendation and didn't have any issues and that was a decade ago.
novok 2y ago
That is what ChatGPT is turning into for many...
herrherrmann 2y ago
This sounds more like a systemic issue than a technological one. New tech will most likely only support the current system (profit over people, in your case), and not magically make things fairer or more social.
- resource_waste 2y ago
  I have an example that disagrees. I had a stomach bug, and a Physician was insistent I get xrays. I put my symptoms into chatGPT, and it agreed that the xray was unnecessary. I saved hundreds of dollars, I learned my doctor was corrupt, and tbh... I already knew what I had before going to the doctors. I only needed the doctor to write the prescription.
  - idiotsecant 2y ago
    Have you considered that your doctor might have had an actual reason to want you to get an X-ray and that maybe chatgpt is wrong? Absolutely wild to me that you distrust a human but feel like a glorified autocomplete is somehow completely trustworthy. They can both lie, but at least the human knows they are lying.
    - resource_waste 2y ago
      Buddy, the xray was to find a stone or something. Anyway, chatgpt was right, physician was wrong. So... we are denying reality now? EDIT: I should mention, literally every patient was offered an xray. We were in a communal area. It didn't help that their ads across the wall were full of pseudoscience too.
  - meroes 2y ago
    Oh my god
    - forgetfreeman 2y ago
      Yeah, it's gotten to this point. Fucking unreal.
Zambyte 2y ago
Using robots does not change any financial incentives. This is true for operations as well as diagnosis.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  Diagnosis is currently extremely subjective. I believe that GP is suggesting that robotic diagnosis will be more objective and determinant. Ostensibly, because financial considerations will not be part of the input to the diagnosis routine. That said, financial considerations will probably still be a big part of the treatment routine.
  - lawlessone 2y ago
    You wont be able to ask for a second opinion on anything though. Presumably if they are all the same software they'll give the same opinion.
  - Zambyte 2y ago
    > Ostensibly, because financial considerations will not be part of the input to the diagnosis routine. Devices that overreport are likely to be more popular and more common than devices that underreport. That is in part due to the financial incentives associated with diagnosing.
    - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
      > Devices that overreport are likely to be more popular and more common than devices that underreport. I think you're on to something. I bet Henry Schein execs/shareholders haven't felt this much energy since patients first saw their dental issues on 36 inch TVs.
    - grraaaaahhh 2y ago
      To tie in the sibling threads: devices that underreport will also be popular, just with the insurance companies after the fact to help them deny covering procedures. Your lung biopsy come back benign? CignaAI says you shouldn't have had it in the first place so out of pocket for you!

I'm way more interest robotic diagnosis than robotic treatment. It's so hard to trust dentists have your interest above their financial interest

by elif 2y ago

I'm way more interest robotic diagnosis than robotic treatment. It's so hard to trust dentists have your interest above their financial interest

taneq 2y ago

If the robot's decision-making process is transparent then 100% agreed. I just know, however, that (at least as long as state-of-the-art 'AI' consists of huge models trained on big data) the advice given by any free-on-the-internet bot will have built-in biases towards paid recommendations and similarly insidious things.

xhkkffbf 2y ago

What makes you think that the robot won't have a financial interest? The company that makes it will want a profit. The dentist that buys it wants to make a profit. If there's an AI under the hood, it might decide that someone needs to pay for its electricity habit. That being said, I agree that it's a difficult part of the fee-for-service model.

idiotsecant 2y ago

That's what second opinions are for. Not sure how a robot helps this.

sunjieming 2y ago

Whenever there's information asymmetry that financially benefits one party you have to be cautious. It's been shocking how many times people I know have sought second opinions on recommended dental work only to be given a completely different recommended treatment that's thousands of dollars cheaper. Example from a friend: Dentist 1 - you need ten fillings today! Dentist 2 - You have a few risk spots but let's just keep an eye on it. Went with the second recommendation and didn't have any issues and that was a decade ago.

novok 2y ago

That is what ChatGPT is turning into for many...

herrherrmann 2y ago

This sounds more like a systemic issue than a technological one. New tech will most likely only support the current system (profit over people, in your case), and not magically make things fairer or more social.

resource_waste 2y ago
I have an example that disagrees. I had a stomach bug, and a Physician was insistent I get xrays. I put my symptoms into chatGPT, and it agreed that the xray was unnecessary. I saved hundreds of dollars, I learned my doctor was corrupt, and tbh... I already knew what I had before going to the doctors. I only needed the doctor to write the prescription.
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  Have you considered that your doctor might have had an actual reason to want you to get an X-ray and that maybe chatgpt is wrong? Absolutely wild to me that you distrust a human but feel like a glorified autocomplete is somehow completely trustworthy. They can both lie, but at least the human knows they are lying.
  - resource_waste 2y ago
    Buddy, the xray was to find a stone or something. Anyway, chatgpt was right, physician was wrong. So... we are denying reality now? EDIT: I should mention, literally every patient was offered an xray. We were in a communal area. It didn't help that their ads across the wall were full of pseudoscience too.
- meroes 2y ago
  Oh my god
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    Yeah, it's gotten to this point. Fucking unreal.

Zambyte 2y ago

Using robots does not change any financial incentives. This is true for operations as well as diagnosis.

dotancohen 2y ago
Diagnosis is currently extremely subjective. I believe that GP is suggesting that robotic diagnosis will be more objective and determinant. Ostensibly, because financial considerations will not be part of the input to the diagnosis routine. That said, financial considerations will probably still be a big part of the treatment routine.
- lawlessone 2y ago
  You wont be able to ask for a second opinion on anything though. Presumably if they are all the same software they'll give the same opinion.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  > Ostensibly, because financial considerations will not be part of the input to the diagnosis routine. Devices that overreport are likely to be more popular and more common than devices that underreport. That is in part due to the financial incentives associated with diagnosing.
  - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
    > Devices that overreport are likely to be more popular and more common than devices that underreport. I think you're on to something. I bet Henry Schein execs/shareholders haven't felt this much energy since patients first saw their dental issues on 36 inch TVs.
  - grraaaaahhh 2y ago
    To tie in the sibling threads: devices that underreport will also be popular, just with the insurance companies after the fact to help them deny covering procedures. Your lung biopsy come back benign? CignaAI says you shouldn't have had it in the first place so out of pocket for you!