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Outlawing an algorithm that observes public facts and make obvious decisions based on those facts seems ... problematic. If all the same owners downloaded an E

Outlawing an algorithm that observes public facts and make obvious decisions based on those facts seems ... problematic. If all the same owners downloaded an Excel spreadsheet that imported the data and ran an algorithm to arrive at a market acceptable price, that would also be deemed illegal? If not, why not?

janalsncm 2y ago
The algorithm isn’t outlawed. It’s called YieldStar. I’m sure it is very clever. What is illegal is collusion, which means using a third party to dictate prices rather than the market. That third party can be a person or an algorithm or an ancient papyrus scroll, it doesn’t matter.
- pjkundert 2y ago
  "dictate". I think that word doesn't mean what you think it means. If I, as a property holder, personally decide to use some mechanism to assist me in reaching a price for my product, that is fine -- even if you don't like it. If I, as a property holder, meet with all of my fellow property owners and collude to set a market price (eliminating competition), that is not fine -- that is collusion. Are you claiming that all property holders are literally colluding to establish a price that eliminates a market price? That there are literally no people who decide to set other prices for equivalent products in that market? If everyone in a market decides (with the help of a program, or because they can do basic mathematics) to set a higher price, and some people, like, just read the "for rent" adds and set similar prices -- that they are, literally colluding to set prices? Because that sounds crazy. What this actually seems to be is the market establishing a price based on common knowledge. If crazy banksters and treasury-looting politicians decide to cause massive inflation, crash the house building industry, and higher rent prices are one (obvious) result, I think we should perhaps look to the root cause -- not accuse some poor slobs reading data from a spreadsheet and setting a rent price that recovers the true rental value of their property, of collusion.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    > personally decide to use some mechanism to assist me in reaching a price for my product, that is fine If that mechanism is a non-competitive price fixing algorithm with access to non-public information then no, it is not fine. Real Page also created work groups to facilitate collusion between apartment managers.
    - pjkundert 2y ago
      "price fixing algorithm"? Wow, that's quite a feat! An algorithm that convinces all individual property owners to collude to set a price? So persuasive, it is, that there are no property owners making things available at differing prices? "access to non-public information"? What, like the market price of your own personal property, and that the algorithm proposes that you should rent it for a price that yields at least the payment of a mortgage on the property! Magic!! Sorcery, I say! This line of reasoning is amazing.

janalsncm 2y ago

The algorithm isn’t outlawed. It’s called YieldStar. I’m sure it is very clever. What is illegal is collusion, which means using a third party to dictate prices rather than the market. That third party can be a person or an algorithm or an ancient papyrus scroll, it doesn’t matter.

pjkundert 2y ago
"dictate". I think that word doesn't mean what you think it means. If I, as a property holder, personally decide to use some mechanism to assist me in reaching a price for my product, that is fine -- even if you don't like it. If I, as a property holder, meet with all of my fellow property owners and collude to set a market price (eliminating competition), that is not fine -- that is collusion. Are you claiming that all property holders are literally colluding to establish a price that eliminates a market price? That there are literally no people who decide to set other prices for equivalent products in that market? If everyone in a market decides (with the help of a program, or because they can do basic mathematics) to set a higher price, and some people, like, just read the "for rent" adds and set similar prices -- that they are, literally colluding to set prices? Because that sounds crazy. What this actually seems to be is the market establishing a price based on common knowledge. If crazy banksters and treasury-looting politicians decide to cause massive inflation, crash the house building industry, and higher rent prices are one (obvious) result, I think we should perhaps look to the root cause -- not accuse some poor slobs reading data from a spreadsheet and setting a rent price that recovers the true rental value of their property, of collusion.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  > personally decide to use some mechanism to assist me in reaching a price for my product, that is fine If that mechanism is a non-competitive price fixing algorithm with access to non-public information then no, it is not fine. Real Page also created work groups to facilitate collusion between apartment managers.
  - pjkundert 2y ago
    "price fixing algorithm"? Wow, that's quite a feat! An algorithm that convinces all individual property owners to collude to set a price? So persuasive, it is, that there are no property owners making things available at differing prices? "access to non-public information"? What, like the market price of your own personal property, and that the algorithm proposes that you should rent it for a price that yields at least the payment of a mortgage on the property! Magic!! Sorcery, I say! This line of reasoning is amazing.