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Linux/Linus Torvalds stands out as another notable BDFL.

gunapologist99 2y ago
And Daniel Robbins at Gentoo, who recently (and sadly) stepped down from Funtoo as well.
darby_nine 2y ago
I'm not intimate with Linux as a project, but this is an attractive argument for it. Unfortunately my main experiences with Torvalds are motivated by his chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said rather than fending off varied interests, which makes him look far more petty than competent.
- arp242 2y ago
  Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. Also I've never seen Torvalds "chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said", it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines. That is: doing stupid. And it's also experienced maintainers Torvalds feels should have know better. You can like or dislike Torvalds' style, but this little student from Finland created the world's most successful open source project, so I think he's probably doing one or two things right. He may not be perfect, but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period is perhaps not too brilliant, and insinuating incompetence over this is quite the take. Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come.
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    > it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines Not only is this a complete lie, but God forbid there's a process in place to catch these things instead of verbally abusing your coworkers for making mistakes, which Linus has done himself. > Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. > but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period That's a great way to make it sound old but he actually gets angrier as time goes on. https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html
    - lakdna 2y ago
      > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. The moral superiority is misplaced: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 But I am not surprised. CoC proponents universally do the same as the people they criticize. Only the application of rules is selective.
      - Capricorn2481 2y ago
        I'm guessing you didn't read the article? You can't see the difference between someone opening a PR Linus doesn't like and a company actively lying about a security breach? They should absolutely be criticized, but I would not verbally harass a coworker over a PR. Wild that you both made an account for this and dug through my comments just to comment on a comment on an article you didn't read.
    - arp242 2y ago
      > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. You do. By outright claiming that I'm lying when I share what I've seen. Of course with no substance to back it up. Let me tell you: I've seen what I've seen. Have I seen an incomplete picture? Almost certainly. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Am I lying? No. Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. Do better next time. Doubly so if you want to get all high and mighty.
      - Capricorn2481 2y ago
        No, you opened with this > Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. You certainly can't represent your post as "I've only seen what I've seen" with that opener. You were claiming the OP was spreading misinformation. That is the lie. Which is why I provided an instance of Linus's tirades that doesn't match up with what you said. Don't call someone "super-biased" and then be surprised when people don't roll over for you. > Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. It's ironic that my mild comment is upsetting you while you defend a mans right to say his employees should've been aborted. Is it just because he's famous? Or because you think the employees were being stupid? Have you considered that "doing stupid" is a subjective assessment that people use as a cudgel to act poorly? What if I thought you were doing stupid, could I say the things Linus says? Here's some more for you: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495
  - rectang 2y ago
    Torvalds also listened, learned and improved. If we want people to respond to constructive criticism constructively, it's uncharitable and counterproductive to pigeonhole them as they were at a point in time.
- kfgahs 2y ago
  Linux started on Usenet, and that was the normal communication style. People simply did not take it seriously back then, it was understood to be partly humorous. Linus doesn't even rant frequently either. People point to the same 10 messages over and over again. He also tolerates when someone snaps back at him, unlike in projects with double standards like CPython where the old boys can do whatever they like but you are not allowed to criticize back or point out their numerous mistakes, segfaults, threading bugs and generally low code quality.

And Daniel Robbins at Gentoo, who recently (and sadly) stepped down from Funtoo as well.

I'm not intimate with Linux as a project, but this is an attractive argument for it. Unfortunately my main experiences with Torvalds are motivated by his chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said rather than fending off varied interests, which makes him look far more petty than competent.

arp242 2y ago
Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. Also I've never seen Torvalds "chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said", it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines. That is: doing stupid. And it's also experienced maintainers Torvalds feels should have know better. You can like or dislike Torvalds' style, but this little student from Finland created the world's most successful open source project, so I think he's probably doing one or two things right. He may not be perfect, but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period is perhaps not too brilliant, and insinuating incompetence over this is quite the take. Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come.
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  > it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines Not only is this a complete lie, but God forbid there's a process in place to catch these things instead of verbally abusing your coworkers for making mistakes, which Linus has done himself. > Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. > but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period That's a great way to make it sound old but he actually gets angrier as time goes on. https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html
  - lakdna 2y ago
    > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. The moral superiority is misplaced: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 But I am not surprised. CoC proponents universally do the same as the people they criticize. Only the application of rules is selective.
    - Capricorn2481 2y ago
      I'm guessing you didn't read the article? You can't see the difference between someone opening a PR Linus doesn't like and a company actively lying about a security breach? They should absolutely be criticized, but I would not verbally harass a coworker over a PR. Wild that you both made an account for this and dug through my comments just to comment on a comment on an article you didn't read.
  - arp242 2y ago
    > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. You do. By outright claiming that I'm lying when I share what I've seen. Of course with no substance to back it up. Let me tell you: I've seen what I've seen. Have I seen an incomplete picture? Almost certainly. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Am I lying? No. Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. Do better next time. Doubly so if you want to get all high and mighty.
    - Capricorn2481 2y ago
      No, you opened with this > Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. You certainly can't represent your post as "I've only seen what I've seen" with that opener. You were claiming the OP was spreading misinformation. That is the lie. Which is why I provided an instance of Linus's tirades that doesn't match up with what you said. Don't call someone "super-biased" and then be surprised when people don't roll over for you. > Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. It's ironic that my mild comment is upsetting you while you defend a mans right to say his employees should've been aborted. Is it just because he's famous? Or because you think the employees were being stupid? Have you considered that "doing stupid" is a subjective assessment that people use as a cudgel to act poorly? What if I thought you were doing stupid, could I say the things Linus says? Here's some more for you: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495
- rectang 2y ago
  Torvalds also listened, learned and improved. If we want people to respond to constructive criticism constructively, it's uncharitable and counterproductive to pigeonhole them as they were at a point in time.
kfgahs 2y ago
Linux started on Usenet, and that was the normal communication style. People simply did not take it seriously back then, it was understood to be partly humorous. Linus doesn't even rant frequently either. People point to the same 10 messages over and over again. He also tolerates when someone snaps back at him, unlike in projects with double standards like CPython where the old boys can do whatever they like but you are not allowed to criticize back or point out their numerous mistakes, segfaults, threading bugs and generally low code quality.