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I don't think this is true. Python had a BDFL and it didn't seem to benefit much from it. I'm not sure what other projects this attitude draws from. Off-hand I'

I don't think this is true. Python had a BDFL and it didn't seem to benefit much from it. I'm not sure what other projects this attitude draws from. Off-hand I'd guess it causes less drama but no appreciable increase of quality, just like other forms of bureaucracy. Meanwhile there's entire landfills of failed projects with single owners who couldn't bend enough. We just don't find this worth discussing. Of course this won't happen, but a man can dream.

anamexis 2y ago
Linux/Linus Torvalds stands out as another notable BDFL.
- gunapologist99 2y ago
  And Daniel Robbins at Gentoo, who recently (and sadly) stepped down from Funtoo as well.
- darby_nine 2y ago
  I'm not intimate with Linux as a project, but this is an attractive argument for it. Unfortunately my main experiences with Torvalds are motivated by his chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said rather than fending off varied interests, which makes him look far more petty than competent.
  - arp242 2y ago
    Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. Also I've never seen Torvalds "chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said", it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines. That is: doing stupid. And it's also experienced maintainers Torvalds feels should have know better. You can like or dislike Torvalds' style, but this little student from Finland created the world's most successful open source project, so I think he's probably doing one or two things right. He may not be perfect, but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period is perhaps not too brilliant, and insinuating incompetence over this is quite the take. Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come.
    - Capricorn2481 2y ago
      > it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines Not only is this a complete lie, but God forbid there's a process in place to catch these things instead of verbally abusing your coworkers for making mistakes, which Linus has done himself. > Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. > but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period That's a great way to make it sound old but he actually gets angrier as time goes on. https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html
      - lakdna 2y ago
        > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. The moral superiority is misplaced: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 But I am not surprised. CoC proponents universally do the same as the people they criticize. Only the application of rules is selective.
        Capricorn2481 2y ago
        I'm guessing you didn't read the article? You can't see the difference between someone opening a PR Linus doesn't like and a company actively lying about a security breach? They should absolutely be criticized, but I would not verbally harass a coworker over a PR. Wild that you both made an account for this and dug through my comments just to comment on a comment on an article you didn't read.
      - arp242 2y ago
        > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. You do. By outright claiming that I'm lying when I share what I've seen. Of course with no substance to back it up. Let me tell you: I've seen what I've seen. Have I seen an incomplete picture? Almost certainly. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Am I lying? No. Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. Do better next time. Doubly so if you want to get all high and mighty.
  - kfgahs 2y ago
    Linux started on Usenet, and that was the normal communication style. People simply did not take it seriously back then, it was understood to be partly humorous. Linus doesn't even rant frequently either. People point to the same 10 messages over and over again. He also tolerates when someone snaps back at him, unlike in projects with double standards like CPython where the old boys can do whatever they like but you are not allowed to criticize back or point out their numerous mistakes, segfaults, threading bugs and generally low code quality.
SatvikBeri 2y ago
Here are some other projects that benefited from BDFLs in my opinion: * Keras * Ruby * Clojure * Zig * OCaml * Vim * Elixir I think all of these have ended up being unusually coherent. I may not agree with their design philosophy, but there clearly is one.
- dgb23 2y ago
  A perhaps important clarification: Many of those, including Linux as far as I know, simply started as projects that were driven by single authors with a strong vision and remarkable diligence. Then people flocked to those projects, but with the understanding and appreciation of that vision. I don’t think any of them wanted to be BDFLs for the sake of power. They were the original authors and _made_ something useful. I don’t think any of them took over an existing project and declared themselves dictators. Ironically they all would be way too opinionated to do so.
- dash2 2y ago
  Conversely, projects without clear leadership include rust (recently) and R, and I think they suffer for it. A very widespread system for organising people is to have a single responsible decision-maker, supported, monitored and advised by a committee. We see that through politics and business, and a lot of the best open source projects seem to do the same thing.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    IMO C++ would have benefitted from having a BDFL for a bit longer as well.
- kovac 2y ago
  Linux, OpenBSD? Perhaps to an extent Mutt too.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  But php, one of the most notoriously chaotic mainstream languages, has a bdfl. And lua, arguably more disciplined than all of the ones you listed, has not.
vbezhenar 2y ago
Python became #1 language in the world. Which factors lead to this success is debatable, but leadership role can't be dismissed.

anamexis 2y ago

Linux/Linus Torvalds stands out as another notable BDFL.

gunapologist99 2y ago
And Daniel Robbins at Gentoo, who recently (and sadly) stepped down from Funtoo as well.
darby_nine 2y ago
I'm not intimate with Linux as a project, but this is an attractive argument for it. Unfortunately my main experiences with Torvalds are motivated by his chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said rather than fending off varied interests, which makes him look far more petty than competent.
- arp242 2y ago
  Only those instances make the news. And then get repeated time and time again. It's a super-biased view not at all representative of his day-to-day behaviour. Also I've never seen Torvalds "chewing out people on mailing lists for something stupid they said", it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines. That is: doing stupid. And it's also experienced maintainers Torvalds feels should have know better. You can like or dislike Torvalds' style, but this little student from Finland created the world's most successful open source project, so I think he's probably doing one or two things right. He may not be perfect, but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period is perhaps not too brilliant, and insinuating incompetence over this is quite the take. Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come.
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    > it's always been someone breaking something or something along those lines Not only is this a complete lie, but God forbid there's a process in place to catch these things instead of verbally abusing your coworkers for making mistakes, which Linus has done himself. > Imagine every outburst you have is public and pointed to for years to come You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. > but being hung up over a few incidents over a 30-year time period That's a great way to make it sound old but he actually gets angrier as time goes on. https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html
    - lakdna 2y ago
      > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. The moral superiority is misplaced: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41017195 But I am not surprised. CoC proponents universally do the same as the people they criticize. Only the application of rules is selective.
      - Capricorn2481 2y ago
        I'm guessing you didn't read the article? You can't see the difference between someone opening a PR Linus doesn't like and a company actively lying about a security breach? They should absolutely be criticized, but I would not verbally harass a coworker over a PR. Wild that you both made an account for this and dug through my comments just to comment on a comment on an article you didn't read.
    - arp242 2y ago
      > You may be surprised to learn that the rest of us don't talk to anyone like this. You do. By outright claiming that I'm lying when I share what I've seen. Of course with no substance to back it up. Let me tell you: I've seen what I've seen. Have I seen an incomplete picture? Almost certainly. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Am I lying? No. Your post is extremely aggressive, pretty darn toxic, and explicitly the sort of stuff that's not appropriate here. Do better next time. Doubly so if you want to get all high and mighty.
- kfgahs 2y ago
  Linux started on Usenet, and that was the normal communication style. People simply did not take it seriously back then, it was understood to be partly humorous. Linus doesn't even rant frequently either. People point to the same 10 messages over and over again. He also tolerates when someone snaps back at him, unlike in projects with double standards like CPython where the old boys can do whatever they like but you are not allowed to criticize back or point out their numerous mistakes, segfaults, threading bugs and generally low code quality.

SatvikBeri 2y ago

Here are some other projects that benefited from BDFLs in my opinion: * Keras * Ruby * Clojure * Zig * OCaml * Vim * Elixir I think all of these have ended up being unusually coherent. I may not agree with their design philosophy, but there clearly is one.

dgb23 2y ago
A perhaps important clarification: Many of those, including Linux as far as I know, simply started as projects that were driven by single authors with a strong vision and remarkable diligence. Then people flocked to those projects, but with the understanding and appreciation of that vision. I don’t think any of them wanted to be BDFLs for the sake of power. They were the original authors and _made_ something useful. I don’t think any of them took over an existing project and declared themselves dictators. Ironically they all would be way too opinionated to do so.
dash2 2y ago
Conversely, projects without clear leadership include rust (recently) and R, and I think they suffer for it. A very widespread system for organising people is to have a single responsible decision-maker, supported, monitored and advised by a committee. We see that through politics and business, and a lot of the best open source projects seem to do the same thing.
- gpderetta 2y ago
  IMO C++ would have benefitted from having a BDFL for a bit longer as well.
kovac 2y ago
Linux, OpenBSD? Perhaps to an extent Mutt too.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
But php, one of the most notoriously chaotic mainstream languages, has a bdfl. And lua, arguably more disciplined than all of the ones you listed, has not.

vbezhenar 2y ago

Python became #1 language in the world. Which factors lead to this success is debatable, but leadership role can't be dismissed.