4 ms·

It most likely has to do with how bored our immune systems are. We evolved to be constantly dirty, and we live in an extremely clean society. When your immune

It most likely has to do with how bored our immune systems are. We evolved to be constantly dirty, and we live in an extremely clean society. When your immune system has a lot to fight, it doesn't worry to much about dumb shit like pollen and peanuts.

BurningFrog 2y ago
The immune system doesn't know how to rest. It must always fight something. So if it runs out of intruders to fight, it will attack the body itself.
colechristensen 2y ago
Clean vs. dirty isn't even the right way to think about it. We used to be immersed in an environment full of life, and now we live in mostly sterile environments free of life except for maybe some of the first wave colonizer specialist microorganisms. You are filled and covered with life that isn't from your own genes, and that microbiome is now mostly disconnected from the biosphere. I get some weird skin issues sometimes which are almost magically fixed if I visit a natural body of water... it's clearly an issue of my immune system interacting unfavorably with a microbiome which is out of whack.
- supertofu 2y ago
  How fascinating. This reminds me that my autoimmune condition went into a brief and mysterious remission two summers ago, when I spent most weekends swimming in creeks. I will have to see if increased creek swimming this summer will help my autoimmune symptoms...
  - jdougan 2y ago
    I hope it works. I can think of far more unpleasant treatments. Let us know the results!
  - nytesky 2y ago
    Yeah getting hooked up with some bugs from the creek keeps your immune system occupied. Hookworms are another option; maybe two generations ago kids regularly walked barefoot in grass and was pretty common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy
- kristianp 2y ago
  Just curious, is it the ocean, or a fresh water body that helps?
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    A small Minnesota lake, just walking on the beach and taking a little dip.
AlbertCory 2y ago
About 20 years a doctor told me that this was a theory that wasn't widely accepted YET, but it deserved to be taken seriously. Now it's much more mainstream.
- viraptor 2y ago
  It's mainstream, but has it actually been confirmed in some way beyond "it makes sense"? I've never seen a paper trying to test it in some way. (Would love to know if it's out there)
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    idk. I was about to say that children from farms have fewer allergies, but I can't actually back that up.
makeitdouble 2y ago
How do you see reactivity to house dust, air pollution, stuff like asbestos and adjacent construction materials etc. ? Then I'd assume the living ecosystem also shifted from mostly open air to indoor insects, i.e. "life finds a way" We sure aren't exposed to the same things as 4 centuries ago, but I can't imagine we're living a what anyone would call a "clean" environment.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  Those are not microorganisms, and don’t necessarily trigger your immune system in the same way.
- jnwatson 2y ago
  Dust allergies are extremely common these days but you can't have an (IgE mediated) allergy to asbestos or smog. Generally the immune system reacts to biological substances. We're vastly more sterile from a germ perspective. The term "hygiene hypothesis" is apt.
- autoexec 2y ago
  We're a very different kind of dirty. We've got microplastics in our organs, and pesticides, PFAS, and other pollutants in our blood. People in the olden days got their hands dirty chopping down trees and building solid wood tables while today we keep our hands clean by buying flat-pack furniture that out-gasses formaldehyde into our homes and our lungs. We're much dirtier than the people were a long time ago, only it's mostly on the inside. The filth in our bodies doesn't wash off with soap.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> We evolved to be constantly dirty And infested with worms. Most allergies are caused by the antibody we evolved to fight worms (and venom) [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010491/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010491/
- jorvi 2y ago
  Reminds me of people having intestinal auto-immune diseases treated with helminth therapy.
  - supertofu 2y ago
    I have colitis and helminth therapy is on my Last Resort list. There are a limited number of drugs to treat the condition, and insurance doesn't cover many of them. The facebook group for DIY helminth therapy is a fascinating place, let me tell you. But there are several possible species of helminths to try. It's all a bit overwhelming.
ein0p 2y ago
This checks out. After moving to a state with a lot of greenery I developed a rather severe allergy to grass and pollen. Literally the entire face would get swollen and stuffy for several months in any given year. Not life threatening, thankfully, but very unpleasant. It went away within a year after I started mowing my own lawn and working in the garden without gloves.

BurningFrog 2y ago

The immune system doesn't know how to rest. It must always fight something. So if it runs out of intruders to fight, it will attack the body itself.

colechristensen 2y ago

Clean vs. dirty isn't even the right way to think about it. We used to be immersed in an environment full of life, and now we live in mostly sterile environments free of life except for maybe some of the first wave colonizer specialist microorganisms. You are filled and covered with life that isn't from your own genes, and that microbiome is now mostly disconnected from the biosphere. I get some weird skin issues sometimes which are almost magically fixed if I visit a natural body of water... it's clearly an issue of my immune system interacting unfavorably with a microbiome which is out of whack.

supertofu 2y ago
How fascinating. This reminds me that my autoimmune condition went into a brief and mysterious remission two summers ago, when I spent most weekends swimming in creeks. I will have to see if increased creek swimming this summer will help my autoimmune symptoms...
- jdougan 2y ago
  I hope it works. I can think of far more unpleasant treatments. Let us know the results!
- nytesky 2y ago
  Yeah getting hooked up with some bugs from the creek keeps your immune system occupied. Hookworms are another option; maybe two generations ago kids regularly walked barefoot in grass and was pretty common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy
kristianp 2y ago
Just curious, is it the ocean, or a fresh water body that helps?
- colechristensen 2y ago
  A small Minnesota lake, just walking on the beach and taking a little dip.

AlbertCory 2y ago

About 20 years a doctor told me that this was a theory that wasn't widely accepted YET, but it deserved to be taken seriously. Now it's much more mainstream.

viraptor 2y ago
It's mainstream, but has it actually been confirmed in some way beyond "it makes sense"? I've never seen a paper trying to test it in some way. (Would love to know if it's out there)
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  idk. I was about to say that children from farms have fewer allergies, but I can't actually back that up.

makeitdouble 2y ago

How do you see reactivity to house dust, air pollution, stuff like asbestos and adjacent construction materials etc. ? Then I'd assume the living ecosystem also shifted from mostly open air to indoor insects, i.e. "life finds a way" We sure aren't exposed to the same things as 4 centuries ago, but I can't imagine we're living a what anyone would call a "clean" environment.

ricardobeat 2y ago
Those are not microorganisms, and don’t necessarily trigger your immune system in the same way.
jnwatson 2y ago
Dust allergies are extremely common these days but you can't have an (IgE mediated) allergy to asbestos or smog. Generally the immune system reacts to biological substances. We're vastly more sterile from a germ perspective. The term "hygiene hypothesis" is apt.
autoexec 2y ago
We're a very different kind of dirty. We've got microplastics in our organs, and pesticides, PFAS, and other pollutants in our blood. People in the olden days got their hands dirty chopping down trees and building solid wood tables while today we keep our hands clean by buying flat-pack furniture that out-gasses formaldehyde into our homes and our lungs. We're much dirtier than the people were a long time ago, only it's mostly on the inside. The filth in our bodies doesn't wash off with soap.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> We evolved to be constantly dirty And infested with worms. Most allergies are caused by the antibody we evolved to fight worms (and venom) [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010491/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010491/

jorvi 2y ago
Reminds me of people having intestinal auto-immune diseases treated with helminth therapy.
- supertofu 2y ago
  I have colitis and helminth therapy is on my Last Resort list. There are a limited number of drugs to treat the condition, and insurance doesn't cover many of them. The facebook group for DIY helminth therapy is a fascinating place, let me tell you. But there are several possible species of helminths to try. It's all a bit overwhelming.

ein0p 2y ago

This checks out. After moving to a state with a lot of greenery I developed a rather severe allergy to grass and pollen. Literally the entire face would get swollen and stuffy for several months in any given year. Not life threatening, thankfully, but very unpleasant. It went away within a year after I started mowing my own lawn and working in the garden without gloves.