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So the example here is a feature that refuses to play Nickelback, and the argument for this "unprofessional" feature is that it's "human". I don't care that it

So the example here is a feature that refuses to play Nickelback, and the argument for this "unprofessional" feature is that it's "human". I don't care that it's "unprofessional"--I don't care about being unprofessional at all. I care about doing what's right and kind. And... this isn't kind, I think. It's just ganging up on Nickelback and their fans with everyone else in 2013 when this was written. I guess you could say this is human, but it's an example of human's worse impulses to bully, albeit a minor one, and it's not one I would want to lean into.

keybored 2y ago
Right. A lot of things you do that are huuuman are “unprofessional” because they are inappropriate in a “professional” setting even though they are kind gestures. Like kissing someone. But some have the attitude that “if you are not pissing some people off you are not expressing yourself”. Which is kind of different.
dleink 2y ago
I don't think it's necessarily "bullying", but if you want to include humor in your product, it should be original or at least funny. Ragging on nickelback was a hack joke then as it is now. Porkbun is a great example of a company doing humor well.
monksy 2y ago
I think your comment is a great example of a ruthless and cuthtroat nature that we're seeing with "insensitivity pushed policies". To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. Contextually (for those who didn't suffer through the Nickleback age) Nickleback was a highly overplayed ban that produced similarly sounding songs with very weak albums with "one hit wonders". It spawned it's own genre called Butt Rock. It's a sign of a monopoly held by the music industry to influence what you heard and how much you heard it on the radio. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butt%20Rock https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butt%20Rock The way I see it is that the feature is a confirming nod to the users' sense of humor and it gives an application a bit of personality. We used to have easter eggs, boss modes, and suprises in applications. (I think excel had a full on game built in) Now it's all about a commoditize labor pushing code out to deliever underdeveloped features on an unreasonable timeline.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. I don't agree, especially considering that the option was enabled by default. Taste is something that's often dear to a person, and telling someone they have bad taste is rude. I've been trying over time to stop saying "this sucks" and instead say "I'm not a fan of this", when talking about pretty much anything subjective that's a matter of taste: music, TV, movies, art, food, architecture, etc. It's a way to recognize that I'm not the absolute arbiter of taste, and that what I like and don't like doesn't represent any sort of absolute positive or negative about anything. > The way I see it is that the feature is a confirming nod to the users' sense of humor and it gives an application a bit of personality. No, it's a nod to the developer's sense of humor. Regardless of Nickelback's provenance and their style of music (I was not a fan of them back then, but, again, I'm not the arbiter of what is good and bad, and neither are you), there were some people who did genuinely like them. Shitting on those people (especially when you're selling a product!) is just tacky and rude. > We used to have easter eggs, boss modes, and suprises in applications. (I think excel had a full on game built in) Yes, and, by and large, those things are positive, joyful things. They weren't dissing a particular type of person who likes a particular type of $THING or $ACTIVITY. And when they were, they tended to fall flat, like this music app's unkind option. I agree that there are unfortunately fewer easter eggs out there now, but I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not this particular feature is a good or bad easter egg. I'll close with: > I think your comment is a great example of a ruthless and cuthtroat nature that we're seeing with "insensitivity pushed policies". To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. Maybe look in the mirror a for a bit; calling the GP's comment "ruthless and cutthroat" is the real absurd overreaction here.
  - azthecx 2y ago
    As an aside to changing your wording so slightly, everyone with two fingers of forehead will very quickly determine that whenever you say "this sucks" it's your biased personal opinion. Maybe such a strong statement from you will cause some people not to mention that they actually like X but, functionally, they will just ignore your opinion on this topic and move on.
kelnos 2y ago
Couldn't agree more. The kind of "unprofessionalism" that brings us easter eggs and silly features should come from a place of positivity and joy, not from a place of negativity and unkindness to others. I wouldn't add a feature like this simply because it's not nice to mock people, regardless of what I think about the music they like.
lliamander 2y ago
"Kind" is at best a context-dependent virtue. There are plenty of situations where being critical or divisive is the right thing. And even when the harshness doesn't come from the best place, we still need it to some extent or we become fragile and blind to our own flaws.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  > "Kind" is at best a context-dependent virtue. There are plenty of situations where being critical or divisive is the right thing. Obviously. Is hating Nickelback one of those situations? > And even when the harshness doesn't come from the best place, we still need it to some extent or we become fragile and blind to our own flaws. That's a fairly nuance-less view of kindness. Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. For example, that is why I decided to criticize the author of this blog post. But hating Nickelback, especially when it's just dogpiling onto a frankly boring meme, isn't trying to fix any flaw or problem. It's just being a dick in a way that it's popular to be a dick, because you can't be arsed to think for yourself about your own actions.
  - lliamander 2y ago
    There's no 11th commandment to be nice. Look, if you didn't find it funny, you're right. But those people who found it funny were also right. Humor is a matter of taste. > It's just being a dick in a way that it's popular to be a dick, because you can't be arsed to think for yourself about your own actions. Maybe, or maybe people think it's funny and based on relevant criticism of the band's musical range and the music industry overall. > Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. There's no use in this conversation if you are just going to equivocate between "kind" and "good". Kindness, as I understand it, usually implies some sort of consideration for the feelings of other people, which is manifestly not always the right thing.
    - kerkeslager 2y ago
      > There's no 11th commandment to be nice. And there is a commandment not to covet your neighbor's slaves, so maybe the 10 commandments aren't a great example of morality. > Look, if you didn't find it funny, you're right. But those people who found it funny were also right. Humor is a matter of taste. Eh, I can see how it's a little funny. I just don't really support humor at other people's expense. > > Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. > There's no use in this conversation if you are just going to equivocate between "kind" and "good". Kindness, as I understand it, usually implies some sort of consideration for the feelings of other people, which is manifestly not always the right thing. I'm not equivocating between "kind" and "good". Going with your definition of kind: sometimes, when you consider the feelings of others, you realize that them feeling bad in the short term because you tell them a hard-to-hear criticism, allows them to fix a problem and feel better in the long term.
janalsncm 2y ago
I’m just struggling to see the harm. I used to like Nickelback. Their music was loud and catchy. At worst I might be confused why my song wasn’t playing and turn off the toggle but it wouldn’t hurt my feelings. > I care about doing what's right and kind This might be controversial but I don’t think the optimal amount of unkindness is zero. Teasing has its place, in the right context. It keeps things interesting. A Nickelback toggle isn’t bullying in my mind, it’s just a playful departure from “someone’s got a case of the Mondays” sunshine and rainbows hell. Now please get off my lawn.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  Yeah, like I said, it's a pretty minor harm. I tend to think that the greatest harm people do by hating something for no reason, is to themselves. One thing I'll mention though, is that there are a lot of kids out there who might like Nickelback, who don't have the same emotional framework as an adult for dealing with this sort of thing.
throwaway290 2y ago
Look at it like this. If there is an option in some big app to refuse to play songs by your band (clearly requested way too often) one way or another your band is clearly king. It's a kudos in disguise

keybored 2y ago

Right. A lot of things you do that are huuuman are “unprofessional” because they are inappropriate in a “professional” setting even though they are kind gestures. Like kissing someone. But some have the attitude that “if you are not pissing some people off you are not expressing yourself”. Which is kind of different.

dleink 2y ago

I don't think it's necessarily "bullying", but if you want to include humor in your product, it should be original or at least funny. Ragging on nickelback was a hack joke then as it is now. Porkbun is a great example of a company doing humor well.

monksy 2y ago

I think your comment is a great example of a ruthless and cuthtroat nature that we're seeing with "insensitivity pushed policies". To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. Contextually (for those who didn't suffer through the Nickleback age) Nickleback was a highly overplayed ban that produced similarly sounding songs with very weak albums with "one hit wonders". It spawned it's own genre called Butt Rock. It's a sign of a monopoly held by the music industry to influence what you heard and how much you heard it on the radio. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butt%20Rock https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Butt%20Rock The way I see it is that the feature is a confirming nod to the users' sense of humor and it gives an application a bit of personality. We used to have easter eggs, boss modes, and suprises in applications. (I think excel had a full on game built in) Now it's all about a commoditize labor pushing code out to deliever underdeveloped features on an unreasonable timeline.

kelnos 2y ago
> To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. I don't agree, especially considering that the option was enabled by default. Taste is something that's often dear to a person, and telling someone they have bad taste is rude. I've been trying over time to stop saying "this sucks" and instead say "I'm not a fan of this", when talking about pretty much anything subjective that's a matter of taste: music, TV, movies, art, food, architecture, etc. It's a way to recognize that I'm not the absolute arbiter of taste, and that what I like and don't like doesn't represent any sort of absolute positive or negative about anything. > The way I see it is that the feature is a confirming nod to the users' sense of humor and it gives an application a bit of personality. No, it's a nod to the developer's sense of humor. Regardless of Nickelback's provenance and their style of music (I was not a fan of them back then, but, again, I'm not the arbiter of what is good and bad, and neither are you), there were some people who did genuinely like them. Shitting on those people (especially when you're selling a product!) is just tacky and rude. > We used to have easter eggs, boss modes, and suprises in applications. (I think excel had a full on game built in) Yes, and, by and large, those things are positive, joyful things. They weren't dissing a particular type of person who likes a particular type of $THING or $ACTIVITY. And when they were, they tended to fall flat, like this music app's unkind option. I agree that there are unfortunately fewer easter eggs out there now, but I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not this particular feature is a good or bad easter egg. I'll close with: > I think your comment is a great example of a ruthless and cuthtroat nature that we're seeing with "insensitivity pushed policies". To call something unkind when making an option to refuse to play nickleback is absurd and an overrecation. Maybe look in the mirror a for a bit; calling the GP's comment "ruthless and cutthroat" is the real absurd overreaction here.
- azthecx 2y ago
  As an aside to changing your wording so slightly, everyone with two fingers of forehead will very quickly determine that whenever you say "this sucks" it's your biased personal opinion. Maybe such a strong statement from you will cause some people not to mention that they actually like X but, functionally, they will just ignore your opinion on this topic and move on.

kelnos 2y ago

Couldn't agree more. The kind of "unprofessionalism" that brings us easter eggs and silly features should come from a place of positivity and joy, not from a place of negativity and unkindness to others. I wouldn't add a feature like this simply because it's not nice to mock people, regardless of what I think about the music they like.

lliamander 2y ago

"Kind" is at best a context-dependent virtue. There are plenty of situations where being critical or divisive is the right thing. And even when the harshness doesn't come from the best place, we still need it to some extent or we become fragile and blind to our own flaws.

kerkeslager 2y ago
> "Kind" is at best a context-dependent virtue. There are plenty of situations where being critical or divisive is the right thing. Obviously. Is hating Nickelback one of those situations? > And even when the harshness doesn't come from the best place, we still need it to some extent or we become fragile and blind to our own flaws. That's a fairly nuance-less view of kindness. Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. For example, that is why I decided to criticize the author of this blog post. But hating Nickelback, especially when it's just dogpiling onto a frankly boring meme, isn't trying to fix any flaw or problem. It's just being a dick in a way that it's popular to be a dick, because you can't be arsed to think for yourself about your own actions.
- lliamander 2y ago
  There's no 11th commandment to be nice. Look, if you didn't find it funny, you're right. But those people who found it funny were also right. Humor is a matter of taste. > It's just being a dick in a way that it's popular to be a dick, because you can't be arsed to think for yourself about your own actions. Maybe, or maybe people think it's funny and based on relevant criticism of the band's musical range and the music industry overall. > Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. There's no use in this conversation if you are just going to equivocate between "kind" and "good". Kindness, as I understand it, usually implies some sort of consideration for the feelings of other people, which is manifestly not always the right thing.
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    > There's no 11th commandment to be nice. And there is a commandment not to covet your neighbor's slaves, so maybe the 10 commandments aren't a great example of morality. > Look, if you didn't find it funny, you're right. But those people who found it funny were also right. Humor is a matter of taste. Eh, I can see how it's a little funny. I just don't really support humor at other people's expense. > > Criticism, in the right context, is kind--it's not kindness to let problems stagnate when they can be fixed. > There's no use in this conversation if you are just going to equivocate between "kind" and "good". Kindness, as I understand it, usually implies some sort of consideration for the feelings of other people, which is manifestly not always the right thing. I'm not equivocating between "kind" and "good". Going with your definition of kind: sometimes, when you consider the feelings of others, you realize that them feeling bad in the short term because you tell them a hard-to-hear criticism, allows them to fix a problem and feel better in the long term.

janalsncm 2y ago

I’m just struggling to see the harm. I used to like Nickelback. Their music was loud and catchy. At worst I might be confused why my song wasn’t playing and turn off the toggle but it wouldn’t hurt my feelings. > I care about doing what's right and kind This might be controversial but I don’t think the optimal amount of unkindness is zero. Teasing has its place, in the right context. It keeps things interesting. A Nickelback toggle isn’t bullying in my mind, it’s just a playful departure from “someone’s got a case of the Mondays” sunshine and rainbows hell. Now please get off my lawn.

kerkeslager 2y ago
Yeah, like I said, it's a pretty minor harm. I tend to think that the greatest harm people do by hating something for no reason, is to themselves. One thing I'll mention though, is that there are a lot of kids out there who might like Nickelback, who don't have the same emotional framework as an adult for dealing with this sort of thing.

throwaway290 2y ago

Look at it like this. If there is an option in some big app to refuse to play songs by your band (clearly requested way too often) one way or another your band is clearly king. It's a kudos in disguise