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Not to step on the authors toes, but it’s not the job searching that is broken - it’s the market that has shifted to favor companies and to put applicants at a

Not to step on the authors toes, but it’s not the job searching that is broken - it’s the market that has shifted to favor companies and to put applicants at a disadvantage, something that hasn’t happened in the IT field for a long time. People reject candidates without a college degree because they can afford to - they still have plenty of applicants to pick from after filtering out the rest. There is no need for them to pay time and money to filter for diamonds without a college degree - they will find someone suitable for the opening even with the crappy applicant experience outlined in the article. The current system is not broken, it works just fine - for the companies.

hadlock 2y ago
Since 2009 only once has someone asked me about a college degree. Once you hit 30 (27?) I don't think it really ever comes up in conversation in a professional context. Your resume shows where you worked and how fast you progressed, which is a much more accurate description of your ability to work in that capacity.
mlinhares 2y ago
There's that but there's also this: > However, after heading over to Y Combinator to check out startup jobs, I was again frustrated by the findings. YC Jobs has a category for Engineering, but it's all software. There's a category for Operations, but it's all CEO, CTO, management positions. After searching and searching I was unable to find any listings for any network or cybersecurity jobs along the sysadmin/engineer lines. How on earth are all these startups operating without a network person? You don't have someone running your server or your VPN? These "operational" jobs where people manage servers without engineering knowledge are much rarer today. Most people run their services on cloud, you need ops people that can code and do engineering as well, the people that used to cable and connect servers are not as important anymore, as the market moves more and more towards cloud or managed providers. If i was the OP i would start thinking seriously about pivoting careers to a devops kinda job instead, where they will find many more options. The "tinkerer" network jobs just aren't that available anymore, it has been heavily abstracted away and the little work that there is the engineers will do as well.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  Startups are too cheap to pay for someone running a proper VPN. Some rather buy some proprietary appliance and call it a day, even, if it ruins workflows of employees for years. (source: experienced this)
  - shortrounddev2 2y ago
    Yeah I've only worked for one company that had a dedicated Network guy, and his work was being phased out as we moved everything towards AWS. Eventually the only work to do at the company was managing security for the company wifi network
- sanderjd 2y ago
  I think there are still a fairly significant number of these jobs, but they just aren't at small companies, because you can get extremely far without even one person doing it full time. Like, into the thousands of employees in most cases, I think? Certainly into the hundreds. So I think this role just isn't very compatible with startup job boards, specifically.
  - mlinhares 2y ago
    Even at large companies you see less of that, I don't think it's a particularly bright career path right now.
- tguvot 2y ago
  those "operational" jobs exists today. just not in the small startups, that still didn't figure out, that despite running in the cloud you need networking and cybersecurity people
  - shortrounddev2 2y ago
    The longer my career goes on, the less a lot of these cloud services make sense to me. I know why we have AWS deploy our production instances, but why are all of our staging and dev instances running on EC2? Can't we just buy an old PC and put it in the office and run dev builds on that? Sure it might be slow, but it's not meant to handle 100k QPS, it's just for QA
spacecadet 2y ago
This. There was a power shift and now that companies are sitting on their capital making interest, they are acting on a more selective pattern then years prior. There was also way too much hiring during COVID, so new people thought that was the market... but it was inflated and so now it is also more competitive for the all applicants. Best advice as others have said- get out there and network, join side projects, contribute to open source.
rexpop 2y ago
Time to start a labor cartel.
- zooq_ai 2y ago
  only works if you have bargaining power, which is determined by supply/demand
  - dnissley 2y ago
    Hmm, what if we gatekeep the profession through licensing requirements?
    - zooq_ai 2y ago
      Isn't that what OP is complaining too? Cybersecurity have above average licensing requirements
    - Waterluvian 2y ago
      P.Eng required for, checks notes safety rated javascript web app dev.
    - shortrounddev2 2y ago
      I am 100% opposed to BS licensing requirements. They are intended to protect the income of the few at the expense of productivity for the many.
- ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
  Too many strike rats
esafak 2y ago
Companies still have to contend with wasting time interviewing candidates who look good on paper.
- gkuan 2y ago
  At least they save on the interview travel costs now since most interviews seemed to have moved to Zoom and ilk.
lovethevoid 2y ago
Arguing against this; the system doesn't work fine for the companies either. They're wasting huge amounts of capital on candidates that they're distrustful of as they ultimately leap away anyways for slightly higher returns, repeating the cycle. This leads into a whole lot of internal issues as well. The system is broken. It's just that companies can weather the storm. Also job searching on its own is broken even when you ignore the market favouring the employer, as online submissions are still disastrous from companies asking invasive questions, to demanding LinkedIn profiles so they can apply through there instead of their own network, to automatic resume apps most companies rely on not even doing their basic job properly, to forcing companies to have to invent weird ways to verify the person who is applying is even a person at all. It's all a huge mess nobody wants to tackle because again, companies can weather it fine, and eventually everyone gets a job somewhere that keeps them too busy to care.
ecshafer 2y ago
On /r/sysadmin and /r/itcareerquestions I have long been downvoted when I disagreed with the mantra of "just get a cert, college degrees are worthless". I do think that most valuable learning happens on the job and on your own. However, the job market is not always so hot for developers and IT, and like now it will have down turns. I always recommended younger people that even if they could get a job off of certs, they should strongly consider part time classes to get a degree. While a lot of the IT jobs are cert and experience focused, more like a blue collar job. They are still in white collar companies, in offices, and play normal office politics. So eventually having a degree can be a filter to moving up, so its better to get one sooner rather than later. The other side of this is what this person is facing. Operations jobs are becoming rarer than they used to be, and operations jobs that do not require coding are even rarer. Just having skills doing set ups is a lot less valuable if you can't script everything to happen automatically in a cloud environment. At the end of the day you might be a good candidate, but on paper 5 years of experience vs 5 eyars of experience AND a degree, the degree wins.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
benreesman 2y ago
The software business has been trying to break the back of its workforce for decades. There was a huge anti-trust lawsuit about it in like 2011 and there will likely be another about the mass coordinated layoffs and hiring freezes in 2023 (complete with tacky EPS beat on tacky EPS beat). This isn’t unique to software of course, the attack on working people is broad spectrum in 2024, but it’s probably the last white collar profession to go down in terms of labor pricing power. Even five or ten years ago it was a seller’s market.
- oblio 2y ago
  > there will likely be another about the mass coordinated layoffs and hiring freezes in 2023 Did you mean 2024? > This isn’t unique to software of course, the attack on working people is broad spectrum in 2024, but it’s probably the last white collar profession to go down in terms of labor pricing power. Even five or ten years ago it was a seller’s market. I'm curious of where we are on the curve. Is San Francisco 2024 anywhere near Detroit 2013? My guess would be that it's a "no": San Francisco is in a much more attractive natural location and white collar professions tend to have more flexible individuals than blue collar ones.

hadlock 2y ago

Since 2009 only once has someone asked me about a college degree. Once you hit 30 (27?) I don't think it really ever comes up in conversation in a professional context. Your resume shows where you worked and how fast you progressed, which is a much more accurate description of your ability to work in that capacity.

mlinhares 2y ago

There's that but there's also this: > However, after heading over to Y Combinator to check out startup jobs, I was again frustrated by the findings. YC Jobs has a category for Engineering, but it's all software. There's a category for Operations, but it's all CEO, CTO, management positions. After searching and searching I was unable to find any listings for any network or cybersecurity jobs along the sysadmin/engineer lines. How on earth are all these startups operating without a network person? You don't have someone running your server or your VPN? These "operational" jobs where people manage servers without engineering knowledge are much rarer today. Most people run their services on cloud, you need ops people that can code and do engineering as well, the people that used to cable and connect servers are not as important anymore, as the market moves more and more towards cloud or managed providers. If i was the OP i would start thinking seriously about pivoting careers to a devops kinda job instead, where they will find many more options. The "tinkerer" network jobs just aren't that available anymore, it has been heavily abstracted away and the little work that there is the engineers will do as well.

zelphirkalt 2y ago
Startups are too cheap to pay for someone running a proper VPN. Some rather buy some proprietary appliance and call it a day, even, if it ruins workflows of employees for years. (source: experienced this)
- shortrounddev2 2y ago
  Yeah I've only worked for one company that had a dedicated Network guy, and his work was being phased out as we moved everything towards AWS. Eventually the only work to do at the company was managing security for the company wifi network
sanderjd 2y ago
I think there are still a fairly significant number of these jobs, but they just aren't at small companies, because you can get extremely far without even one person doing it full time. Like, into the thousands of employees in most cases, I think? Certainly into the hundreds. So I think this role just isn't very compatible with startup job boards, specifically.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  Even at large companies you see less of that, I don't think it's a particularly bright career path right now.
tguvot 2y ago
those "operational" jobs exists today. just not in the small startups, that still didn't figure out, that despite running in the cloud you need networking and cybersecurity people
- shortrounddev2 2y ago
  The longer my career goes on, the less a lot of these cloud services make sense to me. I know why we have AWS deploy our production instances, but why are all of our staging and dev instances running on EC2? Can't we just buy an old PC and put it in the office and run dev builds on that? Sure it might be slow, but it's not meant to handle 100k QPS, it's just for QA

spacecadet 2y ago

This. There was a power shift and now that companies are sitting on their capital making interest, they are acting on a more selective pattern then years prior. There was also way too much hiring during COVID, so new people thought that was the market... but it was inflated and so now it is also more competitive for the all applicants. Best advice as others have said- get out there and network, join side projects, contribute to open source.

rexpop 2y ago

Time to start a labor cartel.

zooq_ai 2y ago
only works if you have bargaining power, which is determined by supply/demand
- dnissley 2y ago
  Hmm, what if we gatekeep the profession through licensing requirements?
  - zooq_ai 2y ago
    Isn't that what OP is complaining too? Cybersecurity have above average licensing requirements
  - Waterluvian 2y ago
    P.Eng required for, checks notes safety rated javascript web app dev.
  - shortrounddev2 2y ago
    I am 100% opposed to BS licensing requirements. They are intended to protect the income of the few at the expense of productivity for the many.
ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
Too many strike rats

esafak 2y ago

Companies still have to contend with wasting time interviewing candidates who look good on paper.

gkuan 2y ago
At least they save on the interview travel costs now since most interviews seemed to have moved to Zoom and ilk.

lovethevoid 2y ago

Arguing against this; the system doesn't work fine for the companies either. They're wasting huge amounts of capital on candidates that they're distrustful of as they ultimately leap away anyways for slightly higher returns, repeating the cycle. This leads into a whole lot of internal issues as well. The system is broken. It's just that companies can weather the storm. Also job searching on its own is broken even when you ignore the market favouring the employer, as online submissions are still disastrous from companies asking invasive questions, to demanding LinkedIn profiles so they can apply through there instead of their own network, to automatic resume apps most companies rely on not even doing their basic job properly, to forcing companies to have to invent weird ways to verify the person who is applying is even a person at all. It's all a huge mess nobody wants to tackle because again, companies can weather it fine, and eventually everyone gets a job somewhere that keeps them too busy to care.

ecshafer 2y ago

On /r/sysadmin and /r/itcareerquestions I have long been downvoted when I disagreed with the mantra of "just get a cert, college degrees are worthless". I do think that most valuable learning happens on the job and on your own. However, the job market is not always so hot for developers and IT, and like now it will have down turns. I always recommended younger people that even if they could get a job off of certs, they should strongly consider part time classes to get a degree. While a lot of the IT jobs are cert and experience focused, more like a blue collar job. They are still in white collar companies, in offices, and play normal office politics. So eventually having a degree can be a filter to moving up, so its better to get one sooner rather than later. The other side of this is what this person is facing. Operations jobs are becoming rarer than they used to be, and operations jobs that do not require coding are even rarer. Just having skills doing set ups is a lot less valuable if you can't script everything to happen automatically in a cloud environment. At the end of the day you might be a good candidate, but on paper 5 years of experience vs 5 eyars of experience AND a degree, the degree wins.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

benreesman 2y ago

The software business has been trying to break the back of its workforce for decades. There was a huge anti-trust lawsuit about it in like 2011 and there will likely be another about the mass coordinated layoffs and hiring freezes in 2023 (complete with tacky EPS beat on tacky EPS beat). This isn’t unique to software of course, the attack on working people is broad spectrum in 2024, but it’s probably the last white collar profession to go down in terms of labor pricing power. Even five or ten years ago it was a seller’s market.

oblio 2y ago
> there will likely be another about the mass coordinated layoffs and hiring freezes in 2023 Did you mean 2024? > This isn’t unique to software of course, the attack on working people is broad spectrum in 2024, but it’s probably the last white collar profession to go down in terms of labor pricing power. Even five or ten years ago it was a seller’s market. I'm curious of where we are on the curve. Is San Francisco 2024 anywhere near Detroit 2013? My guess would be that it's a "no": San Francisco is in a much more attractive natural location and white collar professions tend to have more flexible individuals than blue collar ones.