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That might be convenient, but what if owning an EV that was useful for 90% of your trips was also much, much cheaper? You can always rent a longer-range vehicle

That might be convenient, but what if owning an EV that was useful for 90% of your trips was also much, much cheaper? You can always rent a longer-range vehicle (analogous to buying a plane ticket when you want to go farther than it makes sense to drive)?

Auracle 2y ago
The process of renting a car would take just as long as charging on most people’s “regular” long trips. (Almost) Nobody is going to rent a car to visit their family that’s 3 hours away every 2 months.
tonyarkles 2y ago
Yeah, that's where they start getting more interesting for sure. The trick is actually getting there, especially down-market. My wife, as an example, currently drives a 2003 RAV4 that she paid $6000 CAD for a couple of years ago. It's got enough capacity with the seats folded down to carry the kit that she needs for work and has a 600km range that can be "recharged" in 10 minutes. I'm fully aware that there's no apples-to-apples comparison to be had here because equivalent EVs in 2003 were... not great nor plentiful and definitely not available on the current used market. They did actually make a 2003 RAV4 Hybrid but my understanding is that due to the increased complexity the maintenance costs were pretty brutal. Digging into this long tail though is going to be the key to getting to the tipping point where there are more EVs on the road than not. She has absolutely no reason to "upgrade" her car until either gasoline becomes so eyewateringly expensive that it makes obvious financial sense to pay a loan on an EV every month instead of buying gas or the car itself breaks and there's something that's competitive with the used small SUV market.
- floxy 2y ago
  There have been many safety features added since 2003. Things like electronic stability control (not available on Toyota models until 2004), automatic emergency braking, backup/parking sensors, lane monitoring/departure warnings, cross traffic alert/braking, more air bags, better structural / crush zones, backup / 360° cameras, etc.. Someone could think those were enough all by itself to upgrade. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/what-makes-cars-safer-right-now-a5313968069/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/what-makes-c... Anyway, I'm surprised that a used one or two year old Subaru Solterra EV with less than 10,000 miles costs less than $25,000. https://my.caredge.com/buy?radius=7000&rows=20&zip=97256&make=Subaru&inventoryType=used&model=Solterra&sortBy=dist&sortOrder=asc&start=0 https://my.caredge.com/buy?radius=7000&rows=20&zip=97256&mak...
  - tonyarkles 2y ago
    > Someone could think those were enough all by itself to upgrade Someone could, yeah. I think you'd have a hard time convincing her to spend that $25k for those things, especially given that the Solterra has half the cargo capacity compared to the '03 RAV4 (30 cu.ft. vs. 68 cu.ft.). There's interesting things all over with this. I've got a 2016 Tacoma and absolutely rely on the backup camera every time I back up because the rearward visibility is terrible. When I drive her RAV4... it's not necessary at all because the vehicle itself has amazing visibility. The other thing to take into account... what are the odds that the Solterra is going to make it to 2045 without requiring significant/expensive maintenance? She's had the RAV4 for around 4 years now and so far all we've had to do are brake pads and oil changes.
    - floxy 2y ago
      From the Subaru website: > Maximum cargo volume: 63.5 cubic feet ...I'm assuming that's with the seat folded down, and assuming the RAV4 cargo capacity is also with the seats down. https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solterra/specs-trim.html https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solterra/specs-trim.html >what are the odds that the Solterra is going to make it to 2045 without requiring significant/expensive maintenance? Unknown, but the Solterra is built by Toyota, FWIW. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-real-reason-the-2023-subaru-solterra-is-built-in-a-toyota-factory/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-real-reason-the-2023-subaru...
      - tonyarkles 2y ago
        Huh! I wonder how the site I got that number from got the cargo capacity so wrong. Looks like the battery itself has a 100,000 mile/8 year warranty (whichever comes first) which is honestly longer than I expected. Well, we’ll see in 5-10 years when she’s ready to replace the RAV4. She had to drive 300km for work today which looks like it would have been right on the edge of the range of that unit. Would’ve been cheaper in an EV, but a significantly longer day since there’s no high-capacity charging infrastructure available on the shortest route to get there.
83 2y ago
This always comes up as a suggestion. I would love to see the numbers where that works out. The costs of renting even a couple times a month (far less than 10% of trips) will very quickly make it cheaper to just own an ICE vehicle. It gets really bad if you dare to drive out of state because you get hit with extra mileage fees. For example every year I go camping for a week - driving from the midwest to Utah in a full size suv or truck (need 4wd and space for climbing/camping gear). Last time I ran the numbers (2022) it was around $1500 for a rental for that trip. (1k base rental for a week, 350 for mileage fees, and 180 for towing fee because I like to bring a small teardrop camper) I've kept a close eye on this since I would love an EV, but it remains much cheaper to keep paying for my ICE vehicle than buying an EV and occasionally renting. There's a huge list of other drawbacks to account for as well: - the non-financial costs of time spent reserving, picking up, dropping off, fighting surprise fees, etc. - worrying about damage (most rentals don't allow off pavement driving, or will void insurance if you do) - the fact that you can't have anything custom (no roof rack for a kayak, no snow tires or chains for driving through the mountains, no winch or recovery points, no interior improvements like stereo or dash cam, the list goes on)

Auracle 2y ago

The process of renting a car would take just as long as charging on most people’s “regular” long trips. (Almost) Nobody is going to rent a car to visit their family that’s 3 hours away every 2 months.

tonyarkles 2y ago

Yeah, that's where they start getting more interesting for sure. The trick is actually getting there, especially down-market. My wife, as an example, currently drives a 2003 RAV4 that she paid $6000 CAD for a couple of years ago. It's got enough capacity with the seats folded down to carry the kit that she needs for work and has a 600km range that can be "recharged" in 10 minutes. I'm fully aware that there's no apples-to-apples comparison to be had here because equivalent EVs in 2003 were... not great nor plentiful and definitely not available on the current used market. They did actually make a 2003 RAV4 Hybrid but my understanding is that due to the increased complexity the maintenance costs were pretty brutal. Digging into this long tail though is going to be the key to getting to the tipping point where there are more EVs on the road than not. She has absolutely no reason to "upgrade" her car until either gasoline becomes so eyewateringly expensive that it makes obvious financial sense to pay a loan on an EV every month instead of buying gas or the car itself breaks and there's something that's competitive with the used small SUV market.

floxy 2y ago
There have been many safety features added since 2003. Things like electronic stability control (not available on Toyota models until 2004), automatic emergency braking, backup/parking sensors, lane monitoring/departure warnings, cross traffic alert/braking, more air bags, better structural / crush zones, backup / 360° cameras, etc.. Someone could think those were enough all by itself to upgrade. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/what-makes-cars-safer-right-now-a5313968069/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/what-makes-c... Anyway, I'm surprised that a used one or two year old Subaru Solterra EV with less than 10,000 miles costs less than $25,000. https://my.caredge.com/buy?radius=7000&rows=20&zip=97256&make=Subaru&inventoryType=used&model=Solterra&sortBy=dist&sortOrder=asc&start=0 https://my.caredge.com/buy?radius=7000&rows=20&zip=97256&mak...
- tonyarkles 2y ago
  > Someone could think those were enough all by itself to upgrade Someone could, yeah. I think you'd have a hard time convincing her to spend that $25k for those things, especially given that the Solterra has half the cargo capacity compared to the '03 RAV4 (30 cu.ft. vs. 68 cu.ft.). There's interesting things all over with this. I've got a 2016 Tacoma and absolutely rely on the backup camera every time I back up because the rearward visibility is terrible. When I drive her RAV4... it's not necessary at all because the vehicle itself has amazing visibility. The other thing to take into account... what are the odds that the Solterra is going to make it to 2045 without requiring significant/expensive maintenance? She's had the RAV4 for around 4 years now and so far all we've had to do are brake pads and oil changes.
  - floxy 2y ago
    From the Subaru website: > Maximum cargo volume: 63.5 cubic feet ...I'm assuming that's with the seat folded down, and assuming the RAV4 cargo capacity is also with the seats down. https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solterra/specs-trim.html https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solterra/specs-trim.html >what are the odds that the Solterra is going to make it to 2045 without requiring significant/expensive maintenance? Unknown, but the Solterra is built by Toyota, FWIW. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-real-reason-the-2023-subaru-solterra-is-built-in-a-toyota-factory/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-real-reason-the-2023-subaru...
    - tonyarkles 2y ago
      Huh! I wonder how the site I got that number from got the cargo capacity so wrong. Looks like the battery itself has a 100,000 mile/8 year warranty (whichever comes first) which is honestly longer than I expected. Well, we’ll see in 5-10 years when she’s ready to replace the RAV4. She had to drive 300km for work today which looks like it would have been right on the edge of the range of that unit. Would’ve been cheaper in an EV, but a significantly longer day since there’s no high-capacity charging infrastructure available on the shortest route to get there.

83 2y ago

This always comes up as a suggestion. I would love to see the numbers where that works out. The costs of renting even a couple times a month (far less than 10% of trips) will very quickly make it cheaper to just own an ICE vehicle. It gets really bad if you dare to drive out of state because you get hit with extra mileage fees. For example every year I go camping for a week - driving from the midwest to Utah in a full size suv or truck (need 4wd and space for climbing/camping gear). Last time I ran the numbers (2022) it was around $1500 for a rental for that trip. (1k base rental for a week, 350 for mileage fees, and 180 for towing fee because I like to bring a small teardrop camper) I've kept a close eye on this since I would love an EV, but it remains much cheaper to keep paying for my ICE vehicle than buying an EV and occasionally renting. There's a huge list of other drawbacks to account for as well: - the non-financial costs of time spent reserving, picking up, dropping off, fighting surprise fees, etc. - worrying about damage (most rentals don't allow off pavement driving, or will void insurance if you do) - the fact that you can't have anything custom (no roof rack for a kayak, no snow tires or chains for driving through the mountains, no winch or recovery points, no interior improvements like stereo or dash cam, the list goes on)