5 ms·

https://git.sr.ht/~vdupras/duskos https://git.sr.ht/~vdupras/duskos > Dusk OS is a 32-bit Forth and big brother to Collapse OS. Its primary purpose is to be ma

by mikae1 2y ago

https://git.sr.ht/~vdupras/duskos https://git.sr.ht/~vdupras/duskos > Dusk OS is a 32-bit Forth and big brother to Collapse OS. Its primary purpose is to be maximally useful during the first stage of civilizational collapse, that is, when we can't produce modern computers anymore but that there's still many modern computers around.

Bluestein 2y ago
> 32-bit Forth OS mixed with C I mean, what's not to love here? :)
- kragen 2y ago
  the z80 more generally, collapseos is cosplay, not engineering in more detail, collapseos is not a pragmatic engineering effort to foster resiliency, but an essentially religious effort to atone for the sins of the worldly through ascetic renunciation of pleasures such as guis, returning to an imagined arcadian past of austere virtue see against-collapseos.md in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/pavnotes2.git http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/pavnotes2.git for the full critique
  - mburns 2y ago
    DuskOS != CollapseOS (same author, the latter inspired the former). DuskOS doesn’t run on z80. It’s i386 or ARM. Whether that makes it a serious effort or not is still up for debate.
    - kragen 2y ago
      apologies! i haven't investigated duskos in any detail and so whatever opinions i may have about it are not worth considering
  - pmarreck 2y ago
    that URL leads directly to what looks like the contents of a .git directory (so, all the metainformation but no project directory listing) I'm curious because I buy this comment more than their mission statement, although I absolutely agree with their stance on the "longevity/maintainability problem" in software and hardware. but as soon as I saw the ranting about colonialism I was like "oh... basically, anarchist anti-capitalists" as soon as they have kids, they will quickly abandon their non-acquisition of resources stance, LOL
    - kragen 2y ago
      cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41133098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41133098 collapseos isn't a 100r thing, and i haven't seen anything from virgil that sounds like an anarchist anti-capitalist. i have a lot of sympathies for the anarchist anti-capitalist point of view although personally i've suffered a lot more harm from anti-capitalism than from capitalism
      - pmarreck 2y ago
        I have sympathies for it too. But I am also not at all surprised by your "harmed more by anti-caps than caps" statement. The funny thing about having a kid (he's 3) is that you are forced to re-evaluate all your values and preconceived notions to see what it is you really want to transmit to your kid.
        kragen 2y ago
        well, i live in argentina, see, so i've had the opportunity to live under an anti-capitalist government. if you've only lived in a society where capitalists have all the power then it would be unsurprising if the powerless anti-capitalists haven't harmed you
        kragen 2y ago
        somehow i missed that you said 'not at all surprised', oops
        pmarreck 2y ago
        ha, yeah.
  - copx 2y ago
    I can't see the file there.
    - kragen 2y ago
      it's a git repo, you have to clone it i've added a header to that effect since it seems to have been confusing people
      - djur 2y ago
        There's something ironic about condemning someone for "ascetic renunciation of pleasures such as guis" and publishing it as a Markdown file available only by cloning a git repo.
        kragen 2y ago
        the markdown file does say that this point of view resonates with me ;) there are other advantages as well. if someone clones the git repo, they'll still be able to read it after i die and my site goes down; and there's no incentive for anyone to pressure me to rewrite history by deleting things from it, which is a thing that has happened to me in the past, since i can't delete them from remote clones
  - samatman 2y ago
    I'm somewhat surprised that this is your take on the project. I agree with some of it in modified form, such as pointing out that far more powerful systems like old Android phones are sitting around in great quantity and would be a useful scavenge for a complete CollapseOS. In fact that seems to be what DuskOS is about, I'll be interested in your take on that once you have one. But those are not microcontrollers, and what microcontrollers do can't be replaced by sticking a JTAG on an abandoned Android and calling it a day. Your take on the availability for scavenge of 6502s is simply incorrect, Western Digital, who should know, says annual production is in the hundreds of millions, joining the estimated 5 to 10 billion which already exist. https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/ https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/ It strikes me as a quixotic, but worthwhile, investment in civilizational insurance. I don't disagree about the motive at all, but it seems like a useful outlet for that sort of angst. If he keeps at it long enough I would hope he'll support a few more chips, and that seems likely, as I remember a time when it was Z80 only. Variants on that chip exist in their billions as well, although the original was taken off the market, hmm. This April.
    - kragen 2y ago
      i'm surprised to hear 6502s are being produced in quantity! thank you for the correction. any idea what they are used in? i've never found one ripping apart a tv, vcr, printer, dvd player, vacuum cleaner, power supply, radio, lab data recorder, washing machine, etc. i've found 8051 clones, 68000s, weird epson microcontrollers without a publicly documented instruction set, pals, z80 clones with dsp bolted on, and i've seen other people report pics and stm32s, but never a 6502 except in the drean brand commodore 64 i have here looking on digikey i can't find any 6502 or 65c02 parts, although there are a couple of sbcs like https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/olimex-ltd/NEO6502/22078296 https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/olimex-ltd/NEO650.... digikey of course doesn't have everything, but they're usually an okay indicator of what is popular i agree that android phones cannot substitute for microcontrollers! their cortex-a cpus can't guarantee hard real-time responsiveness. and i agree with virgil's point that microcontrollers are very important for practical everyday things. and 6502s make perfectly good microcontrollers, albeit more power-hungry than designs fabbed in a smaller feature size, and requiring external memory while the z80 itself is no longer made, plenty of clones of it are, and a z80 is also perfectly fine as a microcontroller, and a 6502 or z80 is close to the smallest machine on which a self-hosting development environment is feasible
stonethrowaway 2y ago
[flagged]

by mikae1 2y ago

Bluestein 2y ago

> 32-bit Forth OS mixed with C I mean, what's not to love here? :)

kragen 2y ago
the z80 more generally, collapseos is cosplay, not engineering in more detail, collapseos is not a pragmatic engineering effort to foster resiliency, but an essentially religious effort to atone for the sins of the worldly through ascetic renunciation of pleasures such as guis, returning to an imagined arcadian past of austere virtue see against-collapseos.md in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/pavnotes2.git http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/pavnotes2.git for the full critique
- mburns 2y ago
  DuskOS != CollapseOS (same author, the latter inspired the former). DuskOS doesn’t run on z80. It’s i386 or ARM. Whether that makes it a serious effort or not is still up for debate.
  - kragen 2y ago
    apologies! i haven't investigated duskos in any detail and so whatever opinions i may have about it are not worth considering
- pmarreck 2y ago
  that URL leads directly to what looks like the contents of a .git directory (so, all the metainformation but no project directory listing) I'm curious because I buy this comment more than their mission statement, although I absolutely agree with their stance on the "longevity/maintainability problem" in software and hardware. but as soon as I saw the ranting about colonialism I was like "oh... basically, anarchist anti-capitalists" as soon as they have kids, they will quickly abandon their non-acquisition of resources stance, LOL
  - kragen 2y ago
    cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41133098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41133098 collapseos isn't a 100r thing, and i haven't seen anything from virgil that sounds like an anarchist anti-capitalist. i have a lot of sympathies for the anarchist anti-capitalist point of view although personally i've suffered a lot more harm from anti-capitalism than from capitalism
    - pmarreck 2y ago
      I have sympathies for it too. But I am also not at all surprised by your "harmed more by anti-caps than caps" statement. The funny thing about having a kid (he's 3) is that you are forced to re-evaluate all your values and preconceived notions to see what it is you really want to transmit to your kid.
      - kragen 2y ago
        well, i live in argentina, see, so i've had the opportunity to live under an anti-capitalist government. if you've only lived in a society where capitalists have all the power then it would be unsurprising if the powerless anti-capitalists haven't harmed you
        kragen 2y ago
        somehow i missed that you said 'not at all surprised', oops
        pmarreck 2y ago
        ha, yeah.
- copx 2y ago
  I can't see the file there.
  - kragen 2y ago
    it's a git repo, you have to clone it i've added a header to that effect since it seems to have been confusing people
    - djur 2y ago
      There's something ironic about condemning someone for "ascetic renunciation of pleasures such as guis" and publishing it as a Markdown file available only by cloning a git repo.
      - kragen 2y ago
        the markdown file does say that this point of view resonates with me ;) there are other advantages as well. if someone clones the git repo, they'll still be able to read it after i die and my site goes down; and there's no incentive for anyone to pressure me to rewrite history by deleting things from it, which is a thing that has happened to me in the past, since i can't delete them from remote clones
- samatman 2y ago
  I'm somewhat surprised that this is your take on the project. I agree with some of it in modified form, such as pointing out that far more powerful systems like old Android phones are sitting around in great quantity and would be a useful scavenge for a complete CollapseOS. In fact that seems to be what DuskOS is about, I'll be interested in your take on that once you have one. But those are not microcontrollers, and what microcontrollers do can't be replaced by sticking a JTAG on an abandoned Android and calling it a day. Your take on the availability for scavenge of 6502s is simply incorrect, Western Digital, who should know, says annual production is in the hundreds of millions, joining the estimated 5 to 10 billion which already exist. https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/ https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/ It strikes me as a quixotic, but worthwhile, investment in civilizational insurance. I don't disagree about the motive at all, but it seems like a useful outlet for that sort of angst. If he keeps at it long enough I would hope he'll support a few more chips, and that seems likely, as I remember a time when it was Z80 only. Variants on that chip exist in their billions as well, although the original was taken off the market, hmm. This April.
  - kragen 2y ago
    i'm surprised to hear 6502s are being produced in quantity! thank you for the correction. any idea what they are used in? i've never found one ripping apart a tv, vcr, printer, dvd player, vacuum cleaner, power supply, radio, lab data recorder, washing machine, etc. i've found 8051 clones, 68000s, weird epson microcontrollers without a publicly documented instruction set, pals, z80 clones with dsp bolted on, and i've seen other people report pics and stm32s, but never a 6502 except in the drean brand commodore 64 i have here looking on digikey i can't find any 6502 or 65c02 parts, although there are a couple of sbcs like https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/olimex-ltd/NEO6502/22078296 https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/olimex-ltd/NEO650.... digikey of course doesn't have everything, but they're usually an okay indicator of what is popular i agree that android phones cannot substitute for microcontrollers! their cortex-a cpus can't guarantee hard real-time responsiveness. and i agree with virgil's point that microcontrollers are very important for practical everyday things. and 6502s make perfectly good microcontrollers, albeit more power-hungry than designs fabbed in a smaller feature size, and requiring external memory while the z80 itself is no longer made, plenty of clones of it are, and a z80 is also perfectly fine as a microcontroller, and a 6502 or z80 is close to the smallest machine on which a self-hosting development environment is feasible

stonethrowaway 2y ago

[flagged]