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For a site that caters to a startup and entrepreneurial crowd, it's hilarious the number of comments here that amount to "tough cookies, bud" and "Yelp can do w

For a site that caters to a startup and entrepreneurial crowd, it's hilarious the number of comments here that amount to "tough cookies, bud" and "Yelp can do whatever they want, and because they can, you should just shut up." They miss the spirit of this blog post entirely, which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs, which is, um... almost everyone, these days.

WoodenChair 2y ago
Thanks—yeah I actually think they mostly just didn't read the whole post since I addressed this in detail in the last two bold sections "Development Ends" and "Lessons Learned."
Veuxdo 2y ago
> That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs Well, free APIs anyway. If you are paying for API access, you hopefully have a contract which gives you power.
- dual_dingo 2y ago
  Even if you pay, most likely you have a contract that effectively gives you close to no power because it's full of conditions favoring the service provider and trying to use the little power you have will be expensive because laywers and courts get involved.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Aurornis 2y ago
> which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs, which is, um... almost everyone, these days. Not everyone. Business that build on top of other company's APIs will arrange contracts with their API providers. Those contracts generally include warning periods for changes or discontinuation and penalties for early termination. The key here is that it was a free API with no contract or guarantees. Four days is short notice and frustrating, but it wouldn't have really changed the trajectory of his business if they had given him 180 days. If he didn't intend to pay for the API, he couldn't really sell an app that was going to stop working in a few months. So I know we're supposed to be angry about the 4 days thing. It's not good, obviously. However, I don't think it actually changes the situation at all if he wasn't going to sign up anyway.
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  > So I know we're supposed to be angry about the 4 days thing. It's not good, obviously. However, I don't think it actually changes the situation at all if he wasn't going to sign up anyway. As I said in the post and comments here if it made financial sense and they gave me a more reasonable deadline with a less threatening email I would be willing to pay for the API. In this case it didn't make financial sense, so you're right at the current API prices it wouldn't make sense even with 6 months-notice. That said, 6-months (your suggested time period) is a much better grace period for our shared users (users of Restaurants who use it as a frontend and continue to read more reviews at Yelp.com) and much more likely to make me convert to a paid API customer if it had made financial sense.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    > and much more likely to make me convert to a paid API customer if it had made financial sense I don't understand. Are you saying that even if it did make financial sense, you would have voluntarily shut the app down in protest of the 4-day notice period? Even though the sales rep pointed you toward the free trial option to continue using the API beyond the 4 days while you decided? I know you're angry and want us all to be angry at Yelp too, but I have a difficult time believing that anyone would choose to destroy a profitable application out of protest just to stick it to the company about a short notice period.
    - WoodenChair 2y ago
      > I don't understand. Are you saying that even if it did make financial sense, you would have voluntarily shut the app down in protest of the 4-day notice period? Even though the sales rep pointed you toward the free trial option to continue using the API beyond the 4 days while you decided? An app that sold 467 copies over 10 years at less than $5 a copy is not worth the trouble of dealing with a company that gives you Friday->Monday ultimatums. Obviously, if it were a big source of my income I would have to seriously consider it. But luckily, it's not. I discussed this in the "Development Ends" section of the post. Here is the pricing deck they sent me: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cb_8laDpxZdfwJPtYBmibZgvLZ84a17J/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cb_8laDpxZdfwJPtYBmibZgvLZ8... It seems to indicate a $229 base monthly price on the third slide for my use case. > I know you're angry and want us all to be angry at Yelp too, but I have a difficult time believing that anyone would choose to destroy a profitable application out of protest just to stick it to the company. I'm sorry you're reading so much anger in my post. I thought my blog post was pretty balanced. The worst I called them is "quite rude" (I think it's hard to read their emails otherwise) and spent the first half of it describing my app. I never expressed much emotion in my post, and frankly as mentioned above it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things for my life. What I do want is Yelp to change the way it treats developers. Perhaps if someone there reads this it will cause a tiny reflection on their part. I also hope the experience here expressed in the "Lessons Learned" section of the post is useful to other indie developers.
bastardoperator 2y ago
I hear you, but this story keeps happening over and over and over. The reality is once these companies have you and your product by the balls, they will start squeezing. You can pay money to reduce the pressure, or leave and not be squeezed. I would argue using an unpaid API takes you into the unknown with considerable risk.
lmm 2y ago
> They miss the spirit of this blog post entirely, which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs, which is, um... almost everyone, these days. This has been known for like 20 years now. We all know that if you're relying on someone else's API that's a massive risk to your business. What more is there to say at this point? What sympathy is there to give when the inevitable happens?
School-Cotton 2y ago
Almost everyone is working on projects that “use APIs” in some general sense, sure. But I don’t think it’s the case that all or even most people are working on a project that entirely depends on a single third party’s API and is useless without it.
anigbrowl 2y ago
They miss the spirit of this blog post entirely, which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. Or, they completely get it but they work for large platforms that leverage API access commercially or strategically, so their response to unruly peasants is to figuratively chop their heads off.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pvg 2y ago
Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

WoodenChair 2y ago

Thanks—yeah I actually think they mostly just didn't read the whole post since I addressed this in detail in the last two bold sections "Development Ends" and "Lessons Learned."

Veuxdo 2y ago

> That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs Well, free APIs anyway. If you are paying for API access, you hopefully have a contract which gives you power.

dual_dingo 2y ago
Even if you pay, most likely you have a contract that effectively gives you close to no power because it's full of conditions favoring the service provider and trying to use the little power you have will be expensive because laywers and courts get involved.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Aurornis 2y ago

> which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs, which is, um... almost everyone, these days. Not everyone. Business that build on top of other company's APIs will arrange contracts with their API providers. Those contracts generally include warning periods for changes or discontinuation and penalties for early termination. The key here is that it was a free API with no contract or guarantees. Four days is short notice and frustrating, but it wouldn't have really changed the trajectory of his business if they had given him 180 days. If he didn't intend to pay for the API, he couldn't really sell an app that was going to stop working in a few months. So I know we're supposed to be angry about the 4 days thing. It's not good, obviously. However, I don't think it actually changes the situation at all if he wasn't going to sign up anyway.

WoodenChair 2y ago
> So I know we're supposed to be angry about the 4 days thing. It's not good, obviously. However, I don't think it actually changes the situation at all if he wasn't going to sign up anyway. As I said in the post and comments here if it made financial sense and they gave me a more reasonable deadline with a less threatening email I would be willing to pay for the API. In this case it didn't make financial sense, so you're right at the current API prices it wouldn't make sense even with 6 months-notice. That said, 6-months (your suggested time period) is a much better grace period for our shared users (users of Restaurants who use it as a frontend and continue to read more reviews at Yelp.com) and much more likely to make me convert to a paid API customer if it had made financial sense.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > and much more likely to make me convert to a paid API customer if it had made financial sense I don't understand. Are you saying that even if it did make financial sense, you would have voluntarily shut the app down in protest of the 4-day notice period? Even though the sales rep pointed you toward the free trial option to continue using the API beyond the 4 days while you decided? I know you're angry and want us all to be angry at Yelp too, but I have a difficult time believing that anyone would choose to destroy a profitable application out of protest just to stick it to the company about a short notice period.
  - WoodenChair 2y ago
    > I don't understand. Are you saying that even if it did make financial sense, you would have voluntarily shut the app down in protest of the 4-day notice period? Even though the sales rep pointed you toward the free trial option to continue using the API beyond the 4 days while you decided? An app that sold 467 copies over 10 years at less than $5 a copy is not worth the trouble of dealing with a company that gives you Friday->Monday ultimatums. Obviously, if it were a big source of my income I would have to seriously consider it. But luckily, it's not. I discussed this in the "Development Ends" section of the post. Here is the pricing deck they sent me: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cb_8laDpxZdfwJPtYBmibZgvLZ84a17J/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cb_8laDpxZdfwJPtYBmibZgvLZ8... It seems to indicate a $229 base monthly price on the third slide for my use case. > I know you're angry and want us all to be angry at Yelp too, but I have a difficult time believing that anyone would choose to destroy a profitable application out of protest just to stick it to the company. I'm sorry you're reading so much anger in my post. I thought my blog post was pretty balanced. The worst I called them is "quite rude" (I think it's hard to read their emails otherwise) and spent the first half of it describing my app. I never expressed much emotion in my post, and frankly as mentioned above it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things for my life. What I do want is Yelp to change the way it treats developers. Perhaps if someone there reads this it will cause a tiny reflection on their part. I also hope the experience here expressed in the "Lessons Learned" section of the post is useful to other indie developers.

bastardoperator 2y ago

I hear you, but this story keeps happening over and over and over. The reality is once these companies have you and your product by the balls, they will start squeezing. You can pay money to reduce the pressure, or leave and not be squeezed. I would argue using an unpaid API takes you into the unknown with considerable risk.

lmm 2y ago

> They miss the spirit of this blog post entirely, which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. That should be concerning to anyone working on projects that use APIs, which is, um... almost everyone, these days. This has been known for like 20 years now. We all know that if you're relying on someone else's API that's a massive risk to your business. What more is there to say at this point? What sympathy is there to give when the inevitable happens?

School-Cotton 2y ago

Almost everyone is working on projects that “use APIs” in some general sense, sure. But I don’t think it’s the case that all or even most people are working on a project that entirely depends on a single third party’s API and is useless without it.

anigbrowl 2y ago

They miss the spirit of this blog post entirely, which is to point out the overt hostility to and powerlessness of API users. Or, they completely get it but they work for large platforms that leverage API access commercially or strategically, so their response to unruly peasants is to figuratively chop their heads off.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pvg 2y ago

Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html