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See this is why I made the comment I did, nothing that you just said is at all clear from the petition and as it is written it doesn't conform to what you are s

See this is why I made the comment I did, nothing that you just said is at all clear from the petition and as it is written it doesn't conform to what you are saying here. > For single player focused games, this means removing the phone-home verification or drm so it can function offline. I really doubt that anyone would dispute that. If we are only talking about that, its just fine. > For multiplayer focused games, this means allowing users to run their own server. It DOES NOT mean keeping official servers running forever. This is where it gets confusing, since then you say: > And also it needs to be clear this DOES NOT APPLY to games that have a monthly subscription fee like WoW, or games that are completely free to play. That should be clear from the petition but why are those 2 a distinction? You have to buy WoW, its expansions, and pay a subscription fee. Why is that inherently different from buying an online only game, that you just don't have to pay a subscription for? For example, Guild Wars 2. For any reason that mattered it is identical to WoW when it comes to the server side of things. Except it doesn't have a subscription. If we really are going to make that distinction, it should have been in the petition. I had the same problem with the website that was discussing the Crew, critical information about what exactly we were talking about was missing and actually what we were talking about only came up after discussing it here. > Because this is a bad practice that only recently started, and it needs to be stopped before it gets worse. This petition also really needs examples of this, because I struggled to find an example so so far the only ones presented as games that are unplayable because of phoning home is NFS Underground and The Crew. When the petition is making it out to be a much larger and wide spread problem than it currently is.

anon_cow1111 2y ago
WoW only charges the base monthly subscription fee for 90% of the game, you don't actually buy the game+old expansions. The very newest expansion costs something, which could be tricky to fit into the law criteria, but everything else is included with the monthly bill. For GW2, any new regulations would apply normally because you bought a product(the game), not a service(a subscription). So yeah, they'd have to let you host a sever when they shut official servers down. Completely free games don't apply because... they're free. You have not entered into a legal contract with the publisher because no money was exchanged. They're not obligated to keep supporting a free product. If you thought the wording on the petitions is confusing, you might want to tell the guy behind it directly. ( rosswscott at google's mail service). It was actually revised by... probably many people and some things may have been lost in repeated edits. (I can find a list of games that have been killed off. I'll have to reply to this later because I saw it linked in a video and I can't remember which one it was)
- nerdjon 2y ago
  > WoW only charges the base monthly subscription fee for 90% of the game, you don't actually buy the game+old expansions. The very newest expansion costs something, which could be tricky to fit into the law criteria, but everything else is included with the monthly bill. > For GW2, any new regulations would apply normally because you bought a product(the game), not a service(a subscription). So yeah, they'd have to let you host a sever when they shut official servers down. That distinction doesn't really make sense. If your argument is to stop killing games, why do games like WoW get an exception? You still are loosing access to something you paid for, before you ever put in your credit card for a subscription. It's irrelevant how they bundle expansions or make some free later, if you were subscribed from the beginning you bought a lot of expansions and the base game. To be clear here, I think its fine that GW2, Wow, and any online only game could shut down and you loose access to it. As a consumer you should well understand that some things are online only, it is built to be online and if the servers shut down you should understand that. If somehow we can make an exception that WoW is fine, clearly consumers understand online only games regardless of how it was paid for. Not talking about phoning home, but an actual online game. I just don't understand how you justify the distinction of how some online games are somehow different from others. It weakens the entire argument to carve out exceptions that have no basis on the underlying technology on why something isn't realistic. > If you thought the wording on the petitions is confusing, you might want to tell the guy behind it directly. It is less that it is confusing, my point is that is conflating 2 very different things. Phoning home, and truly online games. The reason I responded to you is you started your first post seemingly from a place of authority or understanding of this: > OK as usual there's a ton of misunderstanding on this issue so I feel the need to summarize it: That implies that you know something that we don't, further enforced by you mentioning things in your original post that is nowhere to be found in this petition. If that is not the case and your original post was your own understanding of what is written but not from a place of having any additional information than that makes this conversation very different.
  - anon_cow1111 2y ago
    >That implies that you know something that we don't, further enforced by you mentioning things in your original post that is nowhere to be found in this petition. I "have additional information" in that I've watched the videos that have led up to the petition(s), and although the goals are stated within the petition page, it's more of a condensed semi-legalese which might be difficult for a random reader to extrapolate (and it may be too condensed). >why do games like WoW get an exception? Again, payed expansions for subscription games are a tricky area. If you bought additional content beyond a monthly fee, imo a good compromise might be issuing a refund within a certain time period. That's an issue for government to debate though. If I ONLY signed up for Wow's base subscription and bought nothing else, it's pretty clear-cut that I'm only entitled to service for the payed period and nothing else. >If somehow we can make an exception that WoW is fine, clearly consumers understand online only games... Most consumers clearly understand how a subscription works, that you stop paying and stop getting service. Most consumers also understand that if you buy something as a one-time payment only, it shouldn't be taken away arbitrarily, this is how most multiplayer games have worked for the last... 30 years or so? If Wow's payed expansions get a pass here, it's ONLY because running a server might require unreasonable hardware for an individual (believe me, I'd prefer not to give them a pass). Anyway, here's a list of fully-dead games on pc. This includes a bunch of F2P games, which may or may not be a subject of this regulation depending on the game specifics https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Category:Unplayable_games https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Category:Unplayable_games And here's a list of physical-copy games that can be considered at-risk: https://www.doesitplay.org/index https://www.doesitplay.org/index Anything that lists "no" under offline mode is pretty much going to die, anything with "download required" is potentially dead unless someone figures out a patch when the server shuts down.
beretguy 2y ago
Just watch this video so that you get up to speed with what we are talking about https://invidious.private.coffee/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://invidious.private.coffee/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw Alternative YouTube link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw

anon_cow1111 2y ago

WoW only charges the base monthly subscription fee for 90% of the game, you don't actually buy the game+old expansions. The very newest expansion costs something, which could be tricky to fit into the law criteria, but everything else is included with the monthly bill. For GW2, any new regulations would apply normally because you bought a product(the game), not a service(a subscription). So yeah, they'd have to let you host a sever when they shut official servers down. Completely free games don't apply because... they're free. You have not entered into a legal contract with the publisher because no money was exchanged. They're not obligated to keep supporting a free product. If you thought the wording on the petitions is confusing, you might want to tell the guy behind it directly. ( rosswscott at google's mail service). It was actually revised by... probably many people and some things may have been lost in repeated edits. (I can find a list of games that have been killed off. I'll have to reply to this later because I saw it linked in a video and I can't remember which one it was)

nerdjon 2y ago
> WoW only charges the base monthly subscription fee for 90% of the game, you don't actually buy the game+old expansions. The very newest expansion costs something, which could be tricky to fit into the law criteria, but everything else is included with the monthly bill. > For GW2, any new regulations would apply normally because you bought a product(the game), not a service(a subscription). So yeah, they'd have to let you host a sever when they shut official servers down. That distinction doesn't really make sense. If your argument is to stop killing games, why do games like WoW get an exception? You still are loosing access to something you paid for, before you ever put in your credit card for a subscription. It's irrelevant how they bundle expansions or make some free later, if you were subscribed from the beginning you bought a lot of expansions and the base game. To be clear here, I think its fine that GW2, Wow, and any online only game could shut down and you loose access to it. As a consumer you should well understand that some things are online only, it is built to be online and if the servers shut down you should understand that. If somehow we can make an exception that WoW is fine, clearly consumers understand online only games regardless of how it was paid for. Not talking about phoning home, but an actual online game. I just don't understand how you justify the distinction of how some online games are somehow different from others. It weakens the entire argument to carve out exceptions that have no basis on the underlying technology on why something isn't realistic. > If you thought the wording on the petitions is confusing, you might want to tell the guy behind it directly. It is less that it is confusing, my point is that is conflating 2 very different things. Phoning home, and truly online games. The reason I responded to you is you started your first post seemingly from a place of authority or understanding of this: > OK as usual there's a ton of misunderstanding on this issue so I feel the need to summarize it: That implies that you know something that we don't, further enforced by you mentioning things in your original post that is nowhere to be found in this petition. If that is not the case and your original post was your own understanding of what is written but not from a place of having any additional information than that makes this conversation very different.
- anon_cow1111 2y ago
  >That implies that you know something that we don't, further enforced by you mentioning things in your original post that is nowhere to be found in this petition. I "have additional information" in that I've watched the videos that have led up to the petition(s), and although the goals are stated within the petition page, it's more of a condensed semi-legalese which might be difficult for a random reader to extrapolate (and it may be too condensed). >why do games like WoW get an exception? Again, payed expansions for subscription games are a tricky area. If you bought additional content beyond a monthly fee, imo a good compromise might be issuing a refund within a certain time period. That's an issue for government to debate though. If I ONLY signed up for Wow's base subscription and bought nothing else, it's pretty clear-cut that I'm only entitled to service for the payed period and nothing else. >If somehow we can make an exception that WoW is fine, clearly consumers understand online only games... Most consumers clearly understand how a subscription works, that you stop paying and stop getting service. Most consumers also understand that if you buy something as a one-time payment only, it shouldn't be taken away arbitrarily, this is how most multiplayer games have worked for the last... 30 years or so? If Wow's payed expansions get a pass here, it's ONLY because running a server might require unreasonable hardware for an individual (believe me, I'd prefer not to give them a pass). Anyway, here's a list of fully-dead games on pc. This includes a bunch of F2P games, which may or may not be a subject of this regulation depending on the game specifics https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Category:Unplayable_games https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Category:Unplayable_games And here's a list of physical-copy games that can be considered at-risk: https://www.doesitplay.org/index https://www.doesitplay.org/index Anything that lists "no" under offline mode is pretty much going to die, anything with "download required" is potentially dead unless someone figures out a patch when the server shuts down.

beretguy 2y ago

Just watch this video so that you get up to speed with what we are talking about https://invidious.private.coffee/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://invidious.private.coffee/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw Alternative YouTube link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw