2 ms·

But what is the limited resource here? If one person takes a picture of an ULA launch that doesn't meaningfully prevent anyone else from taking a picture of the

But what is the limited resource here? If one person takes a picture of an ULA launch that doesn't meaningfully prevent anyone else from taking a picture of the same launch. And if they sell that picture as a poster that doesn't meaningfully prevent anyone from posting or selling their pictures. Of course you could argue that everyone selling their pictures as prints drives down the price. But that's just normal market dynamics. The only people harmed by that are ULA's merch department selling fewer of their own posters. If ULA's revenue depended on the sale of prints I would kind of get the argument, but that's not how rocket launches have traditionally been financed.

akira2501 2y ago
> But what is the limited resource here? The space where the cameras are setup. > that doesn't meaningfully prevent anyone else from taking a picture Only so many cameras can be setup in that space. I assume that once enough people are let in they have to start denying other people the ability to enter. I think people are massively confused here. You can photograph and sell pictures of ULA launches all day if you like. What you can't do is apply for special access to an area of limited space and then sell the pictures taken from there. This seems pretty simple to me. You simply have to choose what you want. Sell pictures or be in the special area.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > The space where the cameras are setup. That's... pretty unlikely considering the size of the launch site versus the space a camera and a tripod take up. https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/18744502/spacex-falcon-heavy-rocket-launch-photography-remote-camera-long-exposure https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/18744502/spacex-falcon-he... has pictures of a similar setup. Oodles of space.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    > That's... pretty unlikely considering the size of the launch site versus the space a camera and a tripod take up. I think photograph 2 of 9 in the bottom carousel makes the problem pretty clear. You have issues of road access, number of people, number of vehicles, cooperating between different groups photographing and probably competition over the "ideal" places to photograph from. There's also other images in that carousel of people wandering around and even taking pictures from the middle of a roadway. I think everyone is assuming that ULA can just open the gates and let random groups of people in and it will all be just fine and naturally work itself out. I think these people have never had the responsibility of managing a crowd of any size (particularly one including semi professional photographers) and it's why I specifically invoke the tragedy of the commons.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      And these road issues apply to people selling photos, but not those just posting them to Instagram?
      - akira2501 2y ago
        Here's the site: https://aerospace.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero_small/public/2022-07/52187804215_e2ce1d1cbc_4k.jpg?itok=ee6FTD7J https://aerospace.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero_small/... It's hard for me to believe that anyone can't look at this and just see the obvious administrative issues involved.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        It's hard for me to understand how the administrative issues could only apply to photographers who sell prints but not those who merely post to social. If you need to limit numbers, issue press passes to orgs and give a certain number of remaining slots away via lottery.
        akira2501 2y ago
        > could only apply to photographers who sell prints but not those who merely post to social. They tend to be more aggressive. Their familiarity with the site lends them to act like they own it or that their presence is more justified than a mere casual. They camp out and grab spots or pre-register in a way the precludes other more casual participants from ever getting a pass. They create administrative burden where none might otherwise exist. > If you need to limit numbers I think they want to limit the behavior. This is a favor they are doing for interested parties. It's a shame that some people tend to ruin it. Perhaps I'm being _exceptionally_ charitable to ULA here, but in my experience with similar situations, I genuinely think that's what is occurring here. Which explains their reticence to speak on the issue and the for profit photographers clearly getting a puff piece written exclusively from their point of view.
        2y ago
michaelt 2y ago
> But what is the limited resource here? I mean, it sounds like there's a special bus, to take these photographers to an area with limited access? And given the talk of remote camera setups, presumably that's somewhere it's not safe for people to be during the launch? And so presumably they have to send a guard or two to make sure nobody wanders off, and if anyone gets lost it delays the launch? I could understand if the bus was full, or if they had more people than the guards could handle. (Of course, if that was the problem you'd think they'd have stated it clearly, and allocated the limited press access based on audience and reach. And I can't imagine anyone the size of a rocket company gives a shit about the profit margin on posters. So I don't know what's going on.)

akira2501 2y ago

> But what is the limited resource here? The space where the cameras are setup. > that doesn't meaningfully prevent anyone else from taking a picture Only so many cameras can be setup in that space. I assume that once enough people are let in they have to start denying other people the ability to enter. I think people are massively confused here. You can photograph and sell pictures of ULA launches all day if you like. What you can't do is apply for special access to an area of limited space and then sell the pictures taken from there. This seems pretty simple to me. You simply have to choose what you want. Sell pictures or be in the special area.

ceejayoz 2y ago
> The space where the cameras are setup. That's... pretty unlikely considering the size of the launch site versus the space a camera and a tripod take up. https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/18744502/spacex-falcon-heavy-rocket-launch-photography-remote-camera-long-exposure https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/28/18744502/spacex-falcon-he... has pictures of a similar setup. Oodles of space.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > That's... pretty unlikely considering the size of the launch site versus the space a camera and a tripod take up. I think photograph 2 of 9 in the bottom carousel makes the problem pretty clear. You have issues of road access, number of people, number of vehicles, cooperating between different groups photographing and probably competition over the "ideal" places to photograph from. There's also other images in that carousel of people wandering around and even taking pictures from the middle of a roadway. I think everyone is assuming that ULA can just open the gates and let random groups of people in and it will all be just fine and naturally work itself out. I think these people have never had the responsibility of managing a crowd of any size (particularly one including semi professional photographers) and it's why I specifically invoke the tragedy of the commons.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    And these road issues apply to people selling photos, but not those just posting them to Instagram?
    - akira2501 2y ago
      Here's the site: https://aerospace.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero_small/public/2022-07/52187804215_e2ce1d1cbc_4k.jpg?itok=ee6FTD7J https://aerospace.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero_small/... It's hard for me to believe that anyone can't look at this and just see the obvious administrative issues involved.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        It's hard for me to understand how the administrative issues could only apply to photographers who sell prints but not those who merely post to social. If you need to limit numbers, issue press passes to orgs and give a certain number of remaining slots away via lottery.
        akira2501 2y ago
        > could only apply to photographers who sell prints but not those who merely post to social. They tend to be more aggressive. Their familiarity with the site lends them to act like they own it or that their presence is more justified than a mere casual. They camp out and grab spots or pre-register in a way the precludes other more casual participants from ever getting a pass. They create administrative burden where none might otherwise exist. > If you need to limit numbers I think they want to limit the behavior. This is a favor they are doing for interested parties. It's a shame that some people tend to ruin it. Perhaps I'm being _exceptionally_ charitable to ULA here, but in my experience with similar situations, I genuinely think that's what is occurring here. Which explains their reticence to speak on the issue and the for profit photographers clearly getting a puff piece written exclusively from their point of view.
        2y ago

michaelt 2y ago

> But what is the limited resource here? I mean, it sounds like there's a special bus, to take these photographers to an area with limited access? And given the talk of remote camera setups, presumably that's somewhere it's not safe for people to be during the launch? And so presumably they have to send a guard or two to make sure nobody wanders off, and if anyone gets lost it delays the launch? I could understand if the bus was full, or if they had more people than the guards could handle. (Of course, if that was the problem you'd think they'd have stated it clearly, and allocated the limited press access based on audience and reach. And I can't imagine anyone the size of a rocket company gives a shit about the profit margin on posters. So I don't know what's going on.)