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We had a similar discussion about this before and I feel like this is an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. How many games actually only phone home a

We had a similar discussion about this before and I feel like this is an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. How many games actually only phone home and have been rendered unplayable for that reason? I am struggling to find any examples of this happening, but I am sure there are a few. Unless I am missing it, I don't even see an example listed here. If the game relies on servers for data, online play, or other things that is a completely different beast. That isn't just, "oh it was rendered unplayable". No it was an online game and the servers were shut down. It sucks but thats the nature of moving away from p2p online games. To be very clear here, I agree with this when it comes to single player games. But as its written, it has the potential to conflate 2 massively different issues (as the Crew discussion did last time) that it should be very clear on those distinctions and I would love examples.

er4hn 2y ago
Middle Earth: Shadow of War is a good example. It is a single player game with some minor and optional online elements, and used to have a pay to win store that needed internet access. It requires an online connection the first time you start it. If that server goes away - we're hoping the devs will patch it before that happens.
- nerdjon 2y ago
  I was asking for examples of where a game is unplayable. I know that there are games that only phone home or require an online connection to play online like Kingdom Hearts (which is particularly frustrating on my steam deck). That part of this I am not disputing. From the way this is written it sounds like this is a big problem that keeps happening for single player games, but I am struggling to find a ton of examples.
  - rybosome 2y ago
    The poster answered your question. The game is unplayable without an internet connection - it refuses to start. In spite of the fact that the internet connection is only used to provide optional content, without an authenticating server this game which is otherwise fundamentally a single player, offline game will not let you play it.
    - nerdjon 2y ago
      No they did not as I clearly stated the distinction in my response. > The game is unplayable without an internet connection That was not my question. It is still actively playable. I even gave an example of another game that I know in that situation clearly showing that I do in fact know of games that work this way and I have had my own annoyances with them. My original question: > How many games actually only phone home and have been rendered unplayable for that reason? Unless I am mistaken, that game is in fact still playable. As it is currently written this petition does nothing about that. It is not banning phoning home, just that a patch is required if/when you shut down your servers. It is talking about games that did not get that patch. They provided an example of a game that could fit what this is proposing to stop in the future, but does not fit it at the moment. Frankly I would support a ban on phoning home, but that is not what we are talking about. See my other comment to the person that mentioned NFS Underground, that is an example of a game that fit the question I was asking and this petition.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >I know that there are games that only phone home or require an online connection to play online like Kingdom Hearts play what online? Did they get Mirage Arena working in birth by Sleep? Otherwise, I think the only online components is the rhythm side game.
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
> If the game relies on servers for data, online play, or other things that is a completely different beast. That isn't just, "oh it was rendered unplayable". No it was an online game and the servers were shut down. It sucks but thats the nature of moving away from p2p online games. A non-exhaustive list of games I have operated servers for: Freelancer, Team Fortress 2, Half Life 2, Counterstrike, Space Engineers, Minecraft. We know how to solve this problem. Companies don't want to, because they make more money out of lock-in live service games. We're allowed to tell our lawmakers to tell them tough shit. Build games to be used after servers are decommissioned, or don't built games.
- nerdjon 2y ago
  > Build games to be used after servers are decommissioned, or don't built games. To my knowledge you are talking about games that all of the core data is stored on the client side and don't rely on updates being able to be applied to servers on data required for the game to work. How would you propose WoW, FFXIV, or other MMO's continue to be run after? There are fan projects to make private servers for some of those but those rely on data and processes running on the sever's. Controlling bosses, NPC's, events, and other things. It isn't realistic to expect that these companies would release the source code for their servers. Companies re-using code and components for other projects is very much a thing.
  - wtetzner 2y ago
    Honestly (for online multiplayer games) I'd be OK with companies simply documenting the server API and allowing you to point the client to a different server.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > It isn't realistic to expect that these companies would release the source code for their servers. Why is that not realistic? If the company is ending support, surely that code is ancient at that point. What's the risk? The company is ending support, by virtue of that fact, they are conceding they are not making any/enough money to continue the work. So leave it for someone else to do then, if they're inclined. I posit the opposite question to you: why is it normal and acceptable for Blizzard to say "WoW is done and no one can play anymore" and an entire vibrant community and player-base just doesn't get to play their favorite game anymore, because Blizzard decided it wasn't profitable enough? Yeah sure Blizzard made it, fine enough, but that's not the sum total of all work involved. Probably millions of hours at this point of streams, guides, explainers, millions of wiki pages, guides, all kinds of shit that tons of people have invested thousands of hours into. What right does Blizzard have to simply take all of that and turn it off? What about people who make their own living in turn with WoW?
n_ary 2y ago
How about NFS underground 1 & 2? Neither will start anymore because neither can reach the server(defunk) to check for multiplayer magics.
- nerdjon 2y ago
  Thank you! I was not aware of this example. I fully agree that the single player part of that should still be playable. (And multiplayer if its p2p but i assume it is not). I don't quite understand why this petition did not list examples of this happening, since I assume some game caused someone to make this petition. But I still stand by what I originally said that we need to distinguish between games that are offline for no good reason (Like NFS Underground) and games like WoW if/when that shuts down.
Retr0id 2y ago
Minecraft, PC. 33 million copies sold. Game purchases were originally linked to a Mojang account, and even single-player mode required you to log in at least once before you could play. Fair enough. The servers are still up, but they forced people to migrate from Mojang accounts to Microsoft accounts. There was a reasonable grace period, but I didn't want a Microsoft account, so now I can't legally play the game anymore. https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/19615552270221 https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/19615552270221
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >but I didn't want a Microsoft account, so now I can't legally play the game anymore. I mean, that's a reasonable choice you made. Unfortunate, but 2.5b dollar aquisitions by a tech conglomerate will do that. Fortunately, that situation is exceedingly rare.
Gazoche 2y ago
> How many games actually only phone home and have been rendered unplayable for that reason? The entire Xbox Series catalog, for starters. You can't even setup the console without phoning to Microsoft's servers. Meaning units not already associated with an account will become paperweights once Microsoft inevitably kills support.
beretguy 2y ago
You don’t know what you are talking about and you are wasting everyone’s time. Watch this video to understand what we are talking about here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw

er4hn 2y ago

Middle Earth: Shadow of War is a good example. It is a single player game with some minor and optional online elements, and used to have a pay to win store that needed internet access. It requires an online connection the first time you start it. If that server goes away - we're hoping the devs will patch it before that happens.

nerdjon 2y ago
I was asking for examples of where a game is unplayable. I know that there are games that only phone home or require an online connection to play online like Kingdom Hearts (which is particularly frustrating on my steam deck). That part of this I am not disputing. From the way this is written it sounds like this is a big problem that keeps happening for single player games, but I am struggling to find a ton of examples.
- rybosome 2y ago
  The poster answered your question. The game is unplayable without an internet connection - it refuses to start. In spite of the fact that the internet connection is only used to provide optional content, without an authenticating server this game which is otherwise fundamentally a single player, offline game will not let you play it.
  - nerdjon 2y ago
    No they did not as I clearly stated the distinction in my response. > The game is unplayable without an internet connection That was not my question. It is still actively playable. I even gave an example of another game that I know in that situation clearly showing that I do in fact know of games that work this way and I have had my own annoyances with them. My original question: > How many games actually only phone home and have been rendered unplayable for that reason? Unless I am mistaken, that game is in fact still playable. As it is currently written this petition does nothing about that. It is not banning phoning home, just that a patch is required if/when you shut down your servers. It is talking about games that did not get that patch. They provided an example of a game that could fit what this is proposing to stop in the future, but does not fit it at the moment. Frankly I would support a ban on phoning home, but that is not what we are talking about. See my other comment to the person that mentioned NFS Underground, that is an example of a game that fit the question I was asking and this petition.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >I know that there are games that only phone home or require an online connection to play online like Kingdom Hearts play what online? Did they get Mirage Arena working in birth by Sleep? Otherwise, I think the only online components is the rhythm side game.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

> If the game relies on servers for data, online play, or other things that is a completely different beast. That isn't just, "oh it was rendered unplayable". No it was an online game and the servers were shut down. It sucks but thats the nature of moving away from p2p online games. A non-exhaustive list of games I have operated servers for: Freelancer, Team Fortress 2, Half Life 2, Counterstrike, Space Engineers, Minecraft. We know how to solve this problem. Companies don't want to, because they make more money out of lock-in live service games. We're allowed to tell our lawmakers to tell them tough shit. Build games to be used after servers are decommissioned, or don't built games.

nerdjon 2y ago
> Build games to be used after servers are decommissioned, or don't built games. To my knowledge you are talking about games that all of the core data is stored on the client side and don't rely on updates being able to be applied to servers on data required for the game to work. How would you propose WoW, FFXIV, or other MMO's continue to be run after? There are fan projects to make private servers for some of those but those rely on data and processes running on the sever's. Controlling bosses, NPC's, events, and other things. It isn't realistic to expect that these companies would release the source code for their servers. Companies re-using code and components for other projects is very much a thing.
- wtetzner 2y ago
  Honestly (for online multiplayer games) I'd be OK with companies simply documenting the server API and allowing you to point the client to a different server.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > It isn't realistic to expect that these companies would release the source code for their servers. Why is that not realistic? If the company is ending support, surely that code is ancient at that point. What's the risk? The company is ending support, by virtue of that fact, they are conceding they are not making any/enough money to continue the work. So leave it for someone else to do then, if they're inclined. I posit the opposite question to you: why is it normal and acceptable for Blizzard to say "WoW is done and no one can play anymore" and an entire vibrant community and player-base just doesn't get to play their favorite game anymore, because Blizzard decided it wasn't profitable enough? Yeah sure Blizzard made it, fine enough, but that's not the sum total of all work involved. Probably millions of hours at this point of streams, guides, explainers, millions of wiki pages, guides, all kinds of shit that tons of people have invested thousands of hours into. What right does Blizzard have to simply take all of that and turn it off? What about people who make their own living in turn with WoW?

n_ary 2y ago

How about NFS underground 1 & 2? Neither will start anymore because neither can reach the server(defunk) to check for multiplayer magics.

nerdjon 2y ago
Thank you! I was not aware of this example. I fully agree that the single player part of that should still be playable. (And multiplayer if its p2p but i assume it is not). I don't quite understand why this petition did not list examples of this happening, since I assume some game caused someone to make this petition. But I still stand by what I originally said that we need to distinguish between games that are offline for no good reason (Like NFS Underground) and games like WoW if/when that shuts down.

Retr0id 2y ago

Minecraft, PC. 33 million copies sold. Game purchases were originally linked to a Mojang account, and even single-player mode required you to log in at least once before you could play. Fair enough. The servers are still up, but they forced people to migrate from Mojang accounts to Microsoft accounts. There was a reasonable grace period, but I didn't want a Microsoft account, so now I can't legally play the game anymore. https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/19615552270221 https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/19615552270221

johnnyanmac 2y ago
>but I didn't want a Microsoft account, so now I can't legally play the game anymore. I mean, that's a reasonable choice you made. Unfortunate, but 2.5b dollar aquisitions by a tech conglomerate will do that. Fortunately, that situation is exceedingly rare.

Gazoche 2y ago

> How many games actually only phone home and have been rendered unplayable for that reason? The entire Xbox Series catalog, for starters. You can't even setup the console without phoning to Microsoft's servers. Meaning units not already associated with an account will become paperweights once Microsoft inevitably kills support.

beretguy 2y ago

You don’t know what you are talking about and you are wasting everyone’s time. Watch this video to understand what we are talking about here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw