4 ms·

We didn't just make some numbers up, we made assumptions (e.g. 1% of users would signup to premium version), BUT the problem we had was that we've been brought

by akh 14y ago

We didn't just make some numbers up, we made assumptions (e.g. 1% of users would signup to premium version), BUT the problem we had was that we've been brought up in a culture where people look down on you if you say you can make $5M/year, they say that it's bullshit. So although we knew we could make that much, we needed to be more confident in communicating it.

lipponlabang 14y ago
You said you added 10% to the real figures. And you admit it's bullshit. You also admit that you weren't doing this for the money... but the investors are. You sound a disaster all round. Also, borderline lying to potential investors is morally wrong.
pcrh 14y ago
Having been in both SV and the UK, the difference you mention is one of culture. In SV you are supposed to be super-enthusiastic and ambitious, the world is your oyster, etc. Any deviation from that will have investors worried that you don't have enough confidence. In the UK, on the other hand, the approach is more defensive, and encourages you to avoid over-stating your case,in case you are wrong. I always found Dragons Den to be a bit disappointing in terms of the ambitions of the people pitching. A 1/2 million per year business is no bigger than a cafe in a popular spot.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- paulsutter 14y ago
  Bullshit, this isnt about culture. Read my response above. The only possible cultural angle here may be coming from an academic background and having bizarre/naive ideas about business.
  - pcrh 14y ago
    It is cultural, at least in part... Specifically: the enthusiastic, go-getting, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers, it can't fail attitude that you encourage ("Get going. Dive in. Make stuff happen.") is not encouraged in the UK, and in the UK is described as "bullshitting" (this may be different from the US understanding of "bullshitting"). The reason being that these projections/ambitions for success are not based on hard facts, but on the ambitions of the presenter. Where SV, and yourself it seems, differ is they accept at the outset that failure is a possibility, but that avoiding failure is not only a matter of soft or hard facts, market conditions, etc, but also of the character of those involved. Thus, an enthusiastic and ambitious UK team may focus too much on why they "won't fail too much" (i.e. their ambitions are not too unrealistic), whereas a US team would focus on how they are going to whip ass.
    - paulsutter 14y ago
      That's not the cultural issue he raised. He suggested that Scottish seed investors wouldn't ask about projections or market size because the Scottish just don't talk about such things. Yeah right: http://www.archangelsonline.com/content.asp?Page=399&Menu=395 http://www.archangelsonline.com/content.asp?Page=399&Men... Regarding your comment on SV culture: exaggeration is a losing strategy when dealing with SV investors. They want realistic sobriety, and dislike naive cocky projections. Regarding your interpretation of my comments: there is not one shred of "enthusiastic, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers, it can't fail" attitude in my comments. Much to the contrary: I was saying he's completely unprepared to do a startup, but the best way to remedy that problem is to dive in head first, start failing, and learn from the school of hard knocks. There are plenty of people in SV who are deathly afraid/ashamed of failure too. They just don't tend to start companies. There are plenty of superb UK born entrepreneurs, both here and in the UK. Where do you think the industrial revolution began? The only bullshit I'm detecting here is the inclination of certain people to hide their shortcomings behind convenient excuses.
      - akh 14y ago
        The culture issue that pcrh mentioned is what I was referring to. It's not that Scottish seed investors don't ask about projections, it's that if you're a Scottish startup and what to apply for YC, you have to be thinking about much bigger numbers and get into that mindset of "go-getting, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers" that pcrh mentioned. Eitherway, thanks for the discussions and comments. I've emailed you a quick question :)
paulsutter 14y ago
Sorry I stand by my initial statement. The problem was that you knew the numbers were no good, not that you needed to be a better actor. When I was younger i would have agreed with you. But now that I've been a founder of successful companies and in management at a major Internet company, I know from experience that sales projections can range from a total wild-ass guess all the way to rock solid numbers that you can bank on. Investors love the latter and hate the former. Sobriety is much admired by VCs and cocky posturing is a losing approach. The more experience you have, the more you will understand how to soberly and realistically estimate an opportunity. Some opportunities really are sized with more digits than others, and this fact has nothing to do with culture. Read the recent article titled something like "VCs lie, and I do too". He points out that it's really hard for VCs to give candid feedback about shortcomings in the team. I have no such difficulty: your team is woefully inadequate, today. Get going. Dive in. Make stuff happen. Be extremely realistic and especially honest with yourself about the opportunity you're addressing. I was a naive punk once too, and remain a slow learner. You have a lot to learn but if I could you definitely can.

by akh 14y ago

lipponlabang 14y ago

You said you added 10% to the real figures. And you admit it's bullshit. You also admit that you weren't doing this for the money... but the investors are. You sound a disaster all round. Also, borderline lying to potential investors is morally wrong.

pcrh 14y ago

Having been in both SV and the UK, the difference you mention is one of culture. In SV you are supposed to be super-enthusiastic and ambitious, the world is your oyster, etc. Any deviation from that will have investors worried that you don't have enough confidence. In the UK, on the other hand, the approach is more defensive, and encourages you to avoid over-stating your case,in case you are wrong. I always found Dragons Den to be a bit disappointing in terms of the ambitions of the people pitching. A 1/2 million per year business is no bigger than a cafe in a popular spot.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
paulsutter 14y ago
Bullshit, this isnt about culture. Read my response above. The only possible cultural angle here may be coming from an academic background and having bizarre/naive ideas about business.
- pcrh 14y ago
  It is cultural, at least in part... Specifically: the enthusiastic, go-getting, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers, it can't fail attitude that you encourage ("Get going. Dive in. Make stuff happen.") is not encouraged in the UK, and in the UK is described as "bullshitting" (this may be different from the US understanding of "bullshitting"). The reason being that these projections/ambitions for success are not based on hard facts, but on the ambitions of the presenter. Where SV, and yourself it seems, differ is they accept at the outset that failure is a possibility, but that avoiding failure is not only a matter of soft or hard facts, market conditions, etc, but also of the character of those involved. Thus, an enthusiastic and ambitious UK team may focus too much on why they "won't fail too much" (i.e. their ambitions are not too unrealistic), whereas a US team would focus on how they are going to whip ass.
  - paulsutter 14y ago
    That's not the cultural issue he raised. He suggested that Scottish seed investors wouldn't ask about projections or market size because the Scottish just don't talk about such things. Yeah right: http://www.archangelsonline.com/content.asp?Page=399&Menu=395 http://www.archangelsonline.com/content.asp?Page=399&Men... Regarding your comment on SV culture: exaggeration is a losing strategy when dealing with SV investors. They want realistic sobriety, and dislike naive cocky projections. Regarding your interpretation of my comments: there is not one shred of "enthusiastic, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers, it can't fail" attitude in my comments. Much to the contrary: I was saying he's completely unprepared to do a startup, but the best way to remedy that problem is to dive in head first, start failing, and learn from the school of hard knocks. There are plenty of people in SV who are deathly afraid/ashamed of failure too. They just don't tend to start companies. There are plenty of superb UK born entrepreneurs, both here and in the UK. Where do you think the industrial revolution began? The only bullshit I'm detecting here is the inclination of certain people to hide their shortcomings behind convenient excuses.
    - akh 14y ago
      The culture issue that pcrh mentioned is what I was referring to. It's not that Scottish seed investors don't ask about projections, it's that if you're a Scottish startup and what to apply for YC, you have to be thinking about much bigger numbers and get into that mindset of "go-getting, I'm gonna win, we've got the numbers" that pcrh mentioned. Eitherway, thanks for the discussions and comments. I've emailed you a quick question :)

paulsutter 14y ago

Sorry I stand by my initial statement. The problem was that you knew the numbers were no good, not that you needed to be a better actor. When I was younger i would have agreed with you. But now that I've been a founder of successful companies and in management at a major Internet company, I know from experience that sales projections can range from a total wild-ass guess all the way to rock solid numbers that you can bank on. Investors love the latter and hate the former. Sobriety is much admired by VCs and cocky posturing is a losing approach. The more experience you have, the more you will understand how to soberly and realistically estimate an opportunity. Some opportunities really are sized with more digits than others, and this fact has nothing to do with culture. Read the recent article titled something like "VCs lie, and I do too". He points out that it's really hard for VCs to give candid feedback about shortcomings in the team. I have no such difficulty: your team is woefully inadequate, today. Get going. Dive in. Make stuff happen. Be extremely realistic and especially honest with yourself about the opportunity you're addressing. I was a naive punk once too, and remain a slow learner. You have a lot to learn but if I could you definitely can.