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My heart broke in so many ways when I had to put my child through tongue tie release surgery. Yes most people I talked to, professionals included, answered "th

My heart broke in so many ways when I had to put my child through tongue tie release surgery. Yes most people I talked to, professionals included, answered "they won't remember", which to me felt like the most dystopian answer of all. As if the problem with pain is the memory of it.

giantg2 2y ago
What are you suggesting? I don't know of any long-term effects from short-term pain when the pain can't be remembered.
- saint_fiasco 2y ago
  The short term effect of pain is that it is unpleasant. There is no need to appeal to long term effects when someone is clearly suffering right there and then.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
    Thank you
  - giantg2 2y ago
    So by your logic, why should I work if I suffer at work? There are plenty of longterm factors and trade offs to consider. Temporary pain shouldn't be avoided as much as it is today.
    - saint_fiasco 2y ago
      You shouldn't suffer at work if you can work without suffering. This sounds like I'm being pedantic because no one would never be in favor of suffering for no benefit, I'm arguing against a strawman. But in the context of babies suffering, it might surprise you to learn that doctors used to give zero thought to their suffering at all, believing that they don't become conscious until they grow a little. Apparently when they screamed in pain it was like a mechanical autonomous response to a stimulus, not real human pain. They weren't just being sadists. Applying anesthesia is always risky and if you can get away with not doing it then it's sometimes worth engaging in a bit of rationalization to ease the conscience.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
  What saint_fiasco said: > The short term effect of pain is that it is unpleasant. There is no need to appeal to long term effects when someone is clearly suffering right there and then. There is also the fact that trauma is a thing that's not deeply researched, we don't know if pain trauma in babies could affect them later in life.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    If there are any effects, they aren't readily noticeable in existing populations. Even 15 minutes after the procedure there are usually no issues. So by your logic, why should I work if I suffer at work? There are plenty of longterm factors and trade offs to consider. Temporary pain shouldn't be avoided as much as it is today.
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
      We aren't talking about any type of population, we are talking about children 0-1 year. There is very little research on how pain affects the development of humans at this stage because as you might guess, it's incredibly hard to do any sort of test. When humans are this young, small changes could affect how they evolve. Short-term pain should be evaluated as something that could have long-term effect on a baby and weighted against the value that the surgery is going to bring, which is why is very disappointing to hear from a professional "they will not remember it" which implies a "why should you care", that's extremely bad. Short-term pain is still pain and a human being is there, suffering, how could you not consider that for a surgery. Adults ask for anesthesia because are scared of short-term pain, the epidural is highly requested by all mothers giving birth, but babies having laser surgery aren't given anything more than tylenol (I understand why, but still), of course they are in very intense pain. How could we not consider that? And that's overlooking the fact that after tongue tie release, the surgery spot must be rubbed for a minute (with oil) to prevent the tissue from regenerating, 4 times per day, for 15 days (I did this). So it's not really "short".
      - nostrademons 2y ago

giantg2 2y ago

What are you suggesting? I don't know of any long-term effects from short-term pain when the pain can't be remembered.

saint_fiasco 2y ago
The short term effect of pain is that it is unpleasant. There is no need to appeal to long term effects when someone is clearly suffering right there and then.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
  Thank you
- giantg2 2y ago
  So by your logic, why should I work if I suffer at work? There are plenty of longterm factors and trade offs to consider. Temporary pain shouldn't be avoided as much as it is today.
  - saint_fiasco 2y ago
    You shouldn't suffer at work if you can work without suffering. This sounds like I'm being pedantic because no one would never be in favor of suffering for no benefit, I'm arguing against a strawman. But in the context of babies suffering, it might surprise you to learn that doctors used to give zero thought to their suffering at all, believing that they don't become conscious until they grow a little. Apparently when they screamed in pain it was like a mechanical autonomous response to a stimulus, not real human pain. They weren't just being sadists. Applying anesthesia is always risky and if you can get away with not doing it then it's sometimes worth engaging in a bit of rationalization to ease the conscience.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
What saint_fiasco said: > The short term effect of pain is that it is unpleasant. There is no need to appeal to long term effects when someone is clearly suffering right there and then. There is also the fact that trauma is a thing that's not deeply researched, we don't know if pain trauma in babies could affect them later in life.
- giantg2 2y ago
  If there are any effects, they aren't readily noticeable in existing populations. Even 15 minutes after the procedure there are usually no issues. So by your logic, why should I work if I suffer at work? There are plenty of longterm factors and trade offs to consider. Temporary pain shouldn't be avoided as much as it is today.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
    We aren't talking about any type of population, we are talking about children 0-1 year. There is very little research on how pain affects the development of humans at this stage because as you might guess, it's incredibly hard to do any sort of test. When humans are this young, small changes could affect how they evolve. Short-term pain should be evaluated as something that could have long-term effect on a baby and weighted against the value that the surgery is going to bring, which is why is very disappointing to hear from a professional "they will not remember it" which implies a "why should you care", that's extremely bad. Short-term pain is still pain and a human being is there, suffering, how could you not consider that for a surgery. Adults ask for anesthesia because are scared of short-term pain, the epidural is highly requested by all mothers giving birth, but babies having laser surgery aren't given anything more than tylenol (I understand why, but still), of course they are in very intense pain. How could we not consider that? And that's overlooking the fact that after tongue tie release, the surgery spot must be rubbed for a minute (with oil) to prevent the tissue from regenerating, 4 times per day, for 15 days (I did this). So it's not really "short".
    - nostrademons 2y ago