3 ms·

In fact, it was designed not to be used that way, but someone at some point got lazy and now here we are.

JohnFen 2y ago
This is a thing that concerned people can largely address, though. There are three reasons that a company wants your SSN. One is for tax-reporting reasons. For those, it's possible to get and provide a taxpayer ID number to use instead of the SSN. Another is when they're going to need to file reports with Social Security itself. For those, they really do need your SSN. A third is that they just want an ID number and are being lazy. I've found that in the majority of cases, just telling them that you don't provide your SSN for that purpose works. They'll generate their own number to use instead.
- macintux 2y ago
  Our entire system of credit relies on SSNs, so you'd also have to never take out a loan to avoid handing it out.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    I've taken out loans using my taxpayer ID rather than SSN. That said, perhaps I should have made it clear that this isn't my field of expertise. I'm assuming the downvotes I got are because someone knows I'm wrong? I very well could be! I'm just reporting what my personal experience has been.
    - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
      Isn't taxpayer ID effectively just a second SSN (other than being used for the actual Social Security program)? I don't see how that improves anything. It just increases your attack surface because you now have two ids that can be used to take out loans.
    - digging 2y ago
      You might be right, but I don't think it effectively addresses the problems. Even if I can convince every medical provider and bank and whatever else service I can't even remember that I refuse to provide my SSN, except when strictly needed, can I go back and make sure they all retroactively update their records? I hope there aren't any that slip through the cracks. Then, does that really make my SSN safe, or is it a bandaid? Even that isn't really clear to me. Finally, how does that help the millions of SSN fraud victims who aren't me and have no idea they don't have to give their SSN to get medical care? Like, I can learn self-defense against any number of dangers I might encounter - that doesn't mean I'm ok with those dangers being proliferated by our biggest and most critical institutions. So those are probably the two main reasons people are downvoting.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  The real problem is not when you do any of these, it's when other people do it pretending to be you. That's the problem, it's used as an id and password and it's impossible to keep safe.
knowaveragejoe 2y ago
The reasoning is probably related to the kneejerk reaction to a national ID system, which is in turn related to(but not solely a result of) a kneejerk reaction to any sort of national firearms registry.
- salawat 2y ago
  It's not knee-jerk when your nation's culture was formatively cemented by literally opposing everything about how Great Britain understood the relationship between citizen and state. If you cannot understand why those things are dismissed without question, you have zero business being anywhere around them. Some systems just should not exist. Their mere existence, plus the temptation to abuse them, is basically irresistable to exploit once they do exist. Both of the systems you mention fall into that category.
  - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
    Be that as it may, the US seems to have worked around the need in a suboptimal way. I don't see how that can be improved without either 1) a national ID system seen in other countries or 2) beaming into average people's brains an understanding of unique cryptographic identities that they are in charge of maintaining and using.
- pushcx 2y ago
  The US now has recently (as big projects go) finished rolling out a national ID system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act
  - knowaveragejoe 2y ago
    This isn't really the same thing, though, is it?
    - pushcx 2y ago
      Yes, it was designed to give plausible deniability. So it's not explicitly a "national ID system", it's just a system of uniform standards for identification cards across all the national territories with ubiquitous data sharing overseen by a federal agency... but it's "independently" implemented by the states, which could freely choose not to implement it at the cost of locking their citizens out of every federally-run program like, say, flying on a plane.

This is a thing that concerned people can largely address, though. There are three reasons that a company wants your SSN. One is for tax-reporting reasons. For those, it's possible to get and provide a taxpayer ID number to use instead of the SSN. Another is when they're going to need to file reports with Social Security itself. For those, they really do need your SSN. A third is that they just want an ID number and are being lazy. I've found that in the majority of cases, just telling them that you don't provide your SSN for that purpose works. They'll generate their own number to use instead.

macintux 2y ago
Our entire system of credit relies on SSNs, so you'd also have to never take out a loan to avoid handing it out.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  I've taken out loans using my taxpayer ID rather than SSN. That said, perhaps I should have made it clear that this isn't my field of expertise. I'm assuming the downvotes I got are because someone knows I'm wrong? I very well could be! I'm just reporting what my personal experience has been.
  - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
    Isn't taxpayer ID effectively just a second SSN (other than being used for the actual Social Security program)? I don't see how that improves anything. It just increases your attack surface because you now have two ids that can be used to take out loans.
  - digging 2y ago
    You might be right, but I don't think it effectively addresses the problems. Even if I can convince every medical provider and bank and whatever else service I can't even remember that I refuse to provide my SSN, except when strictly needed, can I go back and make sure they all retroactively update their records? I hope there aren't any that slip through the cracks. Then, does that really make my SSN safe, or is it a bandaid? Even that isn't really clear to me. Finally, how does that help the millions of SSN fraud victims who aren't me and have no idea they don't have to give their SSN to get medical care? Like, I can learn self-defense against any number of dangers I might encounter - that doesn't mean I'm ok with those dangers being proliferated by our biggest and most critical institutions. So those are probably the two main reasons people are downvoting.
SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
The real problem is not when you do any of these, it's when other people do it pretending to be you. That's the problem, it's used as an id and password and it's impossible to keep safe.

knowaveragejoe 2y ago

The reasoning is probably related to the kneejerk reaction to a national ID system, which is in turn related to(but not solely a result of) a kneejerk reaction to any sort of national firearms registry.

salawat 2y ago
It's not knee-jerk when your nation's culture was formatively cemented by literally opposing everything about how Great Britain understood the relationship between citizen and state. If you cannot understand why those things are dismissed without question, you have zero business being anywhere around them. Some systems just should not exist. Their mere existence, plus the temptation to abuse them, is basically irresistable to exploit once they do exist. Both of the systems you mention fall into that category.
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago
  Be that as it may, the US seems to have worked around the need in a suboptimal way. I don't see how that can be improved without either 1) a national ID system seen in other countries or 2) beaming into average people's brains an understanding of unique cryptographic identities that they are in charge of maintaining and using.
pushcx 2y ago
The US now has recently (as big projects go) finished rolling out a national ID system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago
  This isn't really the same thing, though, is it?
  - pushcx 2y ago
    Yes, it was designed to give plausible deniability. So it's not explicitly a "national ID system", it's just a system of uniform standards for identification cards across all the national territories with ubiquitous data sharing overseen by a federal agency... but it's "independently" implemented by the states, which could freely choose not to implement it at the cost of locking their citizens out of every federally-run program like, say, flying on a plane.