4 ms·

Indeed. That would cover a conventionally installed VM, like VirtualBox. But this is packaged as a Docker image, and Docker is Linux-specific. Linux is not off

by nine_k 2y ago

Indeed. That would cover a conventionally installed VM, like VirtualBox. But this is packaged as a Docker image, and Docker is Linux-specific. Linux is not officially supported by Apple on their hardware, and is certainly not prevalent on it. I doubt that the intended target audience of this project is limited to Asahi Linux.

prmoustache 2y ago
> I doubt that the intended target audience of this project is limited to Asahi Linux. I guess that part of the license is meant to automatically disqualify an apple branded computer running a linux distro as host OS from running MacOS in a VM: "on each Apple-branded computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software" Some smart ass might argue that "already running the Apple software" doesn't mean at the exact same time but more like "I am still running it sometimes as dual boot" but I am not sure this would pass the court test. And since I believe docker on MacOS runs on linux VM, so this would be running qemu on top of a linux vm on top of MacOS. I can't see any legit use of this. Anyone who would need automatized and disposable environments for CI/CD would simply use UTM on mac minis: https://docs.getutm.app/scripting/scripting/ https://docs.getutm.app/scripting/scripting/
rbut 2y ago
Docker can run on macOS (albeit in a VM), but its still running on a Mac "that is already running the Apple Software". So its a perfectly valid option for Mac owners, even if its a VM + container + VM deep.
- monocasa 2y ago
  This requires kvm exposed in the container. Does docker on mac support kvm?
  - nine_k 2y ago
    AFAICT, with QEMU, access to KVM is only required if you care about performance %) Otherwise it can emulate everything for you.
    - monocasa 2y ago
      This dockerfile explicitly enables kvm in a way that will cause qemu to fail if it's not present.
exe34 2y ago
I run Linux on a Mac book air, so this would allow me to run macos in a controlled environment if I could think of a good reason to do so.
- EspadaV9 2y ago
  Not sure that would be the case since it also includes this part > that is already running the Apple Software Running Linux on Apple hardware would not follow that part of the EULA.
  - exe34 2y ago
    good thing I can't think of any reason to run macos.
    - ramses0 2y ago
      The Tao of Programming, 7.3: """ "Corporate Headquarters has commanded," continued the magician, "that everyone use this workstation as a platform for new programs. Do you agree to this?" "Certainly," replied the master, "I will have it transported to the data center immediately!" And the magician returned to his tower, well pleased. Several days later, a novice wandered into the office of the master programmer and said, "I cannot find the listing for my new program. Do you know where it might be?" "Yes," replied the master, "the listings are stacked on the platform in the data center." """ https://quasi.in/digital/ttop.html#Book7 https://quasi.in/digital/ttop.html#Book7
      - exe34 2y ago
        well put.
      - Modified3019 2y ago
        I don’t understand what this is trying to say.
        throwaway-blaze 2y ago
jkaplowitz 2y ago
Docker actually ships their easy-to-use and commercially supported Docker Desktop product for macOS, which uses Apple's standard virtualization framework under the hood. I think it then runs the Docker containers within a Linux VM that it manages. For people who want an open-source CLI solution rather than a commercial product which for larger businesses requires payment, there's also colima which does roughly the same thing. So, lots of people very successfully use Docker on macOS, including on Apple hardware. This particular software would need nested virtualization to be highly performant, but at least on M3 or newer Macs running macOS 15 or newer, this is now supported by Apple's virtualization framework: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/vzgenericplatformconfiguration/4360552-isnestedvirtualizationenabled?changes=latest_minor https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/vzg... So, if that's not easy to do in a useful and performant way now, it will absolutely be possible in the foreseeable future. I'm sure that the longtime macOS virtualization product Parallels Desktop will add support for nested virtualization quite soon if they haven't already, in addition to whatever Docker Desktop and colima do. (Tangent: Asahi Linux apparently supports nested virtualization on M2 chips even though macOS doesn't.)
- nine_k 2y ago
  Running Linux in a VM (for Docker) to run an emulator (QEMU) in it to run macOS in that looks to me like a senseless waste of resources. Linux and Docker add no value into the mix here. The same result can be achieved by running macOS right in the VM. This can be extra efficient since both the host OS and the guest OS are macOS, and the VM could use this fact. It may make sense to run macOS in an emulator like QEMU under macOS, if the host version us ARM and the guest version is x64 (or vice versa). But I don't see where Linux and Docker would be useful in this case.
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    I agree the particular combo I was discussing is likely not very useful when compared to just directly virtualizing macOS directly, except in niche cases. One such case, however, is when the user is already managing Linux Docker containers for other parts of their development or testing workflow and wants to manage macOS containers with the same tooling. That’s legitimate enough, especially when it ends up supporting nested virtualization of the same architecture and not true emulation, to keep the performance penalty modest enough.

by nine_k 2y ago

prmoustache 2y ago

> I doubt that the intended target audience of this project is limited to Asahi Linux. I guess that part of the license is meant to automatically disqualify an apple branded computer running a linux distro as host OS from running MacOS in a VM: "on each Apple-branded computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software" Some smart ass might argue that "already running the Apple software" doesn't mean at the exact same time but more like "I am still running it sometimes as dual boot" but I am not sure this would pass the court test. And since I believe docker on MacOS runs on linux VM, so this would be running qemu on top of a linux vm on top of MacOS. I can't see any legit use of this. Anyone who would need automatized and disposable environments for CI/CD would simply use UTM on mac minis: https://docs.getutm.app/scripting/scripting/ https://docs.getutm.app/scripting/scripting/

rbut 2y ago

Docker can run on macOS (albeit in a VM), but its still running on a Mac "that is already running the Apple Software". So its a perfectly valid option for Mac owners, even if its a VM + container + VM deep.

monocasa 2y ago
This requires kvm exposed in the container. Does docker on mac support kvm?
- nine_k 2y ago
  AFAICT, with QEMU, access to KVM is only required if you care about performance %) Otherwise it can emulate everything for you.
  - monocasa 2y ago
    This dockerfile explicitly enables kvm in a way that will cause qemu to fail if it's not present.

exe34 2y ago

I run Linux on a Mac book air, so this would allow me to run macos in a controlled environment if I could think of a good reason to do so.

EspadaV9 2y ago
Not sure that would be the case since it also includes this part > that is already running the Apple Software Running Linux on Apple hardware would not follow that part of the EULA.
- exe34 2y ago
  good thing I can't think of any reason to run macos.
  - ramses0 2y ago
    The Tao of Programming, 7.3: """ "Corporate Headquarters has commanded," continued the magician, "that everyone use this workstation as a platform for new programs. Do you agree to this?" "Certainly," replied the master, "I will have it transported to the data center immediately!" And the magician returned to his tower, well pleased. Several days later, a novice wandered into the office of the master programmer and said, "I cannot find the listing for my new program. Do you know where it might be?" "Yes," replied the master, "the listings are stacked on the platform in the data center." """ https://quasi.in/digital/ttop.html#Book7 https://quasi.in/digital/ttop.html#Book7
    - exe34 2y ago
      well put.
    - Modified3019 2y ago
      I don’t understand what this is trying to say.
      - throwaway-blaze 2y ago

jkaplowitz 2y ago

Docker actually ships their easy-to-use and commercially supported Docker Desktop product for macOS, which uses Apple's standard virtualization framework under the hood. I think it then runs the Docker containers within a Linux VM that it manages. For people who want an open-source CLI solution rather than a commercial product which for larger businesses requires payment, there's also colima which does roughly the same thing. So, lots of people very successfully use Docker on macOS, including on Apple hardware. This particular software would need nested virtualization to be highly performant, but at least on M3 or newer Macs running macOS 15 or newer, this is now supported by Apple's virtualization framework: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/vzgenericplatformconfiguration/4360552-isnestedvirtualizationenabled?changes=latest_minor https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/vzg... So, if that's not easy to do in a useful and performant way now, it will absolutely be possible in the foreseeable future. I'm sure that the longtime macOS virtualization product Parallels Desktop will add support for nested virtualization quite soon if they haven't already, in addition to whatever Docker Desktop and colima do. (Tangent: Asahi Linux apparently supports nested virtualization on M2 chips even though macOS doesn't.)

nine_k 2y ago
Running Linux in a VM (for Docker) to run an emulator (QEMU) in it to run macOS in that looks to me like a senseless waste of resources. Linux and Docker add no value into the mix here. The same result can be achieved by running macOS right in the VM. This can be extra efficient since both the host OS and the guest OS are macOS, and the VM could use this fact. It may make sense to run macOS in an emulator like QEMU under macOS, if the host version us ARM and the guest version is x64 (or vice versa). But I don't see where Linux and Docker would be useful in this case.
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  I agree the particular combo I was discussing is likely not very useful when compared to just directly virtualizing macOS directly, except in niche cases. One such case, however, is when the user is already managing Linux Docker containers for other parts of their development or testing workflow and wants to manage macOS containers with the same tooling. That’s legitimate enough, especially when it ends up supporting nested virtualization of the same architecture and not true emulation, to keep the performance penalty modest enough.