5 ms·

Enemy AI has been pretty stagnant for the last couple decades, right? Can somebody use this to make less inhuman bots?

chrishare 2y ago
I wonder what that would look like for the twitch shooter genre?
IvanAchlaqullah 2y ago
> less inhuman bots In games, player don't want AI that 100% strong (it's not fun), what we want is AI that make mistakes like human do. So it's possible (assuming if the datasets is good), in fact it's already done in chess[1]. > Maia’s goal is to play the human move — not necessarily the best move. As a result, Maia has a more human-like style than previous engines, matching moves played by human players in online games over 50% of the time. Also something that I just realized: in this particular case, we want the AI to be biased like human, which is easier to do since the bias is already in the datasets. AI safety is the exact opposite, which is harder if not impossible. [1] https://maiachess.com/ https://maiachess.com/
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  We don’t even want that. Human like AI in a game like this would be really annoying for that vast majority of players that absolutely suck. People who want to play against AI generally want something that’s really dumb.
  - cstejerean 2y ago
    Playing against an AI that's really dumb gets boring quickly. Playing against an AI that's way too good gets annoying quickly. I want an AI that can play like a human at my level would, such that the game is competitive and fun.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      You probably don’t though. It’s actually really unfun to lose 50% of matches against an AI, or worse, because it doesn’t get tired or tilted or distracted. It’s much more fun to go against an AI that is dumber than you but generally more powerful.
      - bathtub365 2y ago
        Different kinds of AI are likely fun for different players. Games have difficulty levels partly because not everyone wants the same level of difficulty relative to their own skill level. Some may want something easily beatable for them, some may want something difficult for them to beat.
      - unaindz 2y ago
        It's unfun if the AI feels like it's cheating. In Counter Strike the AI can be super dumb and slow until progressively it becomes a dumb aimbot. It doesn't become a better player with gamesense ans tacticts, just raw aim (Try arms race if you wanna feel it yourself) In Fear the AI is pretty advanced in a more organic way. It coordinates several enemies to locate you and engage with you in a way that sometimes feels totally human. That feels great and when you lose you try again thinking something like "I should have positioned myself better" instead of "I guess my aim is just not fast enough". We just don't get enough of good AIs to know how good they can feel.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I think what people really want is a “human”-like AI that is worse than them, maybe quite a bit worse. But maybe not exactly what this type of dataset can offer. Which is to say: I want to play against an AI that is dumb enough for me to beat it, but is dumb in human-ish ways. Depending on the genre of the game, I want it to make the sort of mistakes that actual people make in wars, but more often. Or I might want it to make the types of mistakes that the baddies make in action movies. Human players in videogames might provide a little bit of a signal, but they do engage in a lot of game-y and not “realistic” movements, so point taken there. Some people are less familiar with games I think, so they tend to make less gamey movements. Anyone who’s been playing games since the 90’s will bounce around and circle strafe, so they need to be filtered out somehow, haha. Maybe they can provide training data for some sort of advanced “robot” enemy. But the existing AI characters also make some pretty non-human mistakes. Like often it seems that AI difficulty slider is just like: I’m going to stand stupidly in the middle of the road either way, but on easy I’ll spray bullets randomly around you, and in very hard I’ll zap you with lightning reflex headshots. Moves like examining a tree of possible movements, flanking, cover, better coordination, that sort of stuff would be more interesting. Maybe the player data-set can provide some of that? I’m actually not sure. As far as I can think, early Halo games and the FEAR series had be best AI. It’s been a while. Time to advance.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      Yeah but the AI in the games you like was good because it was fun, not because they were circle strafing or doing movement mechanics that are explicitly effective but not realistic. Doing these things would make those AI much less fun as well as immersion breaking.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I haven't paid attention to player-simulating bots in online shooters in forever, what are the current issues? I'd argue that players are a bigger issue, e.g. cheaters, big skill gaps, or the fact they keep shooting at me. There's singleplayer games, but those are intended to be gameplay challenges, not simulate other players. And in that area, I haven't heard any "this is really good" since F.E.A.R. which is nearly 20 years old now.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  The original F.E.A.R. also still remains the game that has most impressed me with the enemy behavior patterns.
Levitz 2y ago
The problem regarding enemy AI is not lack of capability, it's that the market just doesn't care much. At the end of the day, when playing against the computer, you want to be a badass shooting baddies. The vast majority of the playerbase doesn't care enough about the baddies being able to bait and flank you, they just want to shoot the baddies and those who want a challenge find it in multiplayer anyway
unaindz 2y ago
There is a mod for Single Player Tarkov, SAIN's that has, in my opinion, better AI than FEAR. It has some quirks sometimes, it's a mod for a game with severe issues at the end of the day. But the bot behaviors are really human-like while making human mistakes. The difficulty can be tweaked too, giving them worse or slower eyesight, better or faster aim, change the chance they have of making specific decisions. The game is a pain and it needs lots of mods to get good. Even then is still janky but that mod is so worth it if you miss something like FEAR.

I wonder what that would look like for the twitch shooter genre?

> less inhuman bots In games, player don't want AI that 100% strong (it's not fun), what we want is AI that make mistakes like human do. So it's possible (assuming if the datasets is good), in fact it's already done in chess[1]. > Maia’s goal is to play the human move — not necessarily the best move. As a result, Maia has a more human-like style than previous engines, matching moves played by human players in online games over 50% of the time. Also something that I just realized: in this particular case, we want the AI to be biased like human, which is easier to do since the bias is already in the datasets. AI safety is the exact opposite, which is harder if not impossible. [1] https://maiachess.com/ https://maiachess.com/

jncfhnb 2y ago
We don’t even want that. Human like AI in a game like this would be really annoying for that vast majority of players that absolutely suck. People who want to play against AI generally want something that’s really dumb.
- cstejerean 2y ago
  Playing against an AI that's really dumb gets boring quickly. Playing against an AI that's way too good gets annoying quickly. I want an AI that can play like a human at my level would, such that the game is competitive and fun.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    You probably don’t though. It’s actually really unfun to lose 50% of matches against an AI, or worse, because it doesn’t get tired or tilted or distracted. It’s much more fun to go against an AI that is dumber than you but generally more powerful.
    - bathtub365 2y ago
      Different kinds of AI are likely fun for different players. Games have difficulty levels partly because not everyone wants the same level of difficulty relative to their own skill level. Some may want something easily beatable for them, some may want something difficult for them to beat.
    - unaindz 2y ago
      It's unfun if the AI feels like it's cheating. In Counter Strike the AI can be super dumb and slow until progressively it becomes a dumb aimbot. It doesn't become a better player with gamesense ans tacticts, just raw aim (Try arms race if you wanna feel it yourself) In Fear the AI is pretty advanced in a more organic way. It coordinates several enemies to locate you and engage with you in a way that sometimes feels totally human. That feels great and when you lose you try again thinking something like "I should have positioned myself better" instead of "I guess my aim is just not fast enough". We just don't get enough of good AIs to know how good they can feel.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I think what people really want is a “human”-like AI that is worse than them, maybe quite a bit worse. But maybe not exactly what this type of dataset can offer. Which is to say: I want to play against an AI that is dumb enough for me to beat it, but is dumb in human-ish ways. Depending on the genre of the game, I want it to make the sort of mistakes that actual people make in wars, but more often. Or I might want it to make the types of mistakes that the baddies make in action movies. Human players in videogames might provide a little bit of a signal, but they do engage in a lot of game-y and not “realistic” movements, so point taken there. Some people are less familiar with games I think, so they tend to make less gamey movements. Anyone who’s been playing games since the 90’s will bounce around and circle strafe, so they need to be filtered out somehow, haha. Maybe they can provide training data for some sort of advanced “robot” enemy. But the existing AI characters also make some pretty non-human mistakes. Like often it seems that AI difficulty slider is just like: I’m going to stand stupidly in the middle of the road either way, but on easy I’ll spray bullets randomly around you, and in very hard I’ll zap you with lightning reflex headshots. Moves like examining a tree of possible movements, flanking, cover, better coordination, that sort of stuff would be more interesting. Maybe the player data-set can provide some of that? I’m actually not sure. As far as I can think, early Halo games and the FEAR series had be best AI. It’s been a while. Time to advance.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Yeah but the AI in the games you like was good because it was fun, not because they were circle strafing or doing movement mechanics that are explicitly effective but not realistic. Doing these things would make those AI much less fun as well as immersion breaking.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

I haven't paid attention to player-simulating bots in online shooters in forever, what are the current issues? I'd argue that players are a bigger issue, e.g. cheaters, big skill gaps, or the fact they keep shooting at me. There's singleplayer games, but those are intended to be gameplay challenges, not simulate other players. And in that area, I haven't heard any "this is really good" since F.E.A.R. which is nearly 20 years old now.

TeaBrain 2y ago
The original F.E.A.R. also still remains the game that has most impressed me with the enemy behavior patterns.

Levitz 2y ago

The problem regarding enemy AI is not lack of capability, it's that the market just doesn't care much. At the end of the day, when playing against the computer, you want to be a badass shooting baddies. The vast majority of the playerbase doesn't care enough about the baddies being able to bait and flank you, they just want to shoot the baddies and those who want a challenge find it in multiplayer anyway

unaindz 2y ago

There is a mod for Single Player Tarkov, SAIN's that has, in my opinion, better AI than FEAR. It has some quirks sometimes, it's a mod for a game with severe issues at the end of the day. But the bot behaviors are really human-like while making human mistakes. The difficulty can be tweaked too, giving them worse or slower eyesight, better or faster aim, change the chance they have of making specific decisions. The game is a pain and it needs lots of mods to get good. Even then is still janky but that mod is so worth it if you miss something like FEAR.