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> For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. Lithium-ion, sure, but aren't there a whole host of other battery

> For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. Lithium-ion, sure, but aren't there a whole host of other battery chemistries that are basically too big / too heavy to put on vehicles but a lot cheaper so well suited for stationary storage? Are they all still at the research phase and so currently more expensive than the decades-of-learning-curve lithium-ion?

shagie 2y ago
The vanadium redox flow battery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery > For several reasons, including their relative bulkiness, vanadium batteries are typically used for grid energy storage, i.e., attached to power plants/electrical grids. VRFBs' main advantages over other types of battery: no limit on energy capacity can remain discharged indefinitely without damage ... wide operating temperature range including passive cooling long charge/discharge cycle lives: 15,000-20,000 cycles and 10–20 years. low levelized cost: (a few tens of cents), approaching the 2016 $0.05 target stated by the United States Department of Energy and the European Commission Strategic Energy Technology Plan €0.05 target (and yes, there are disadvantages too) See also NPR's story: The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-techno...
- bboygravity 2y ago
  How is 10 - 20 years "sustainable"?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    We’re currently experiencing a Cambrian explosion in battery tech. As the technology matures, and we establish a closed loop ecosystem to build and then recycle these systems, longevity can improve over time. To get better at something, you must first suck at it, and 10-20 years is not an immaterial service life for an asset that just sits and hums with no moving parts.
    - gunapologist99 2y ago
      I agree if we were talking about a motor or a pump, but it seems like batteries basically devastate the environment every time we make one, and doing that millions of times every ten years is probably not great. (But I don't know anything about that specific battery technology.. perhaps it's just saltwater and two dissimilar metals.)
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://sustainability.stackexchange.com/questions/9866/is-lithium-mining-any-better-for-the-environment-than-fossil-fuel-extraction https://sustainability.stackexchange.com/questions/9866/is-l...
energy123 2y ago
Lithium-ion is the cheapest form of stationary storage for the sub-8 hour duration niche. The vast majority of battery storage being deployed is lithium-ion. Sodium-ion is the second largest contender, with a few pilot facilities opening in China recently, but it will be a few years before it eclipses lithium-ion.

shagie 2y ago

The vanadium redox flow battery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery > For several reasons, including their relative bulkiness, vanadium batteries are typically used for grid energy storage, i.e., attached to power plants/electrical grids. VRFBs' main advantages over other types of battery: no limit on energy capacity can remain discharged indefinitely without damage ... wide operating temperature range including passive cooling long charge/discharge cycle lives: 15,000-20,000 cycles and 10–20 years. low levelized cost: (a few tens of cents), approaching the 2016 $0.05 target stated by the United States Department of Energy and the European Commission Strategic Energy Technology Plan €0.05 target (and yes, there are disadvantages too) See also NPR's story: The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-techno...

bboygravity 2y ago
How is 10 - 20 years "sustainable"?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  We’re currently experiencing a Cambrian explosion in battery tech. As the technology matures, and we establish a closed loop ecosystem to build and then recycle these systems, longevity can improve over time. To get better at something, you must first suck at it, and 10-20 years is not an immaterial service life for an asset that just sits and hums with no moving parts.
  - gunapologist99 2y ago
    I agree if we were talking about a motor or a pump, but it seems like batteries basically devastate the environment every time we make one, and doing that millions of times every ten years is probably not great. (But I don't know anything about that specific battery technology.. perhaps it's just saltwater and two dissimilar metals.)
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      https://sustainability.stackexchange.com/questions/9866/is-lithium-mining-any-better-for-the-environment-than-fossil-fuel-extraction https://sustainability.stackexchange.com/questions/9866/is-l...

energy123 2y ago

Lithium-ion is the cheapest form of stationary storage for the sub-8 hour duration niche. The vast majority of battery storage being deployed is lithium-ion. Sodium-ion is the second largest contender, with a few pilot facilities opening in China recently, but it will be a few years before it eclipses lithium-ion.