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Batteries are extremely expensive per megawatt, not very durable, require carefully controlled temperatures, and their manufacturer and recycling extract a trem

Batteries are extremely expensive per megawatt, not very durable, require carefully controlled temperatures, and their manufacturer and recycling extract a tremendous cost from the environment. For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. However, there are other ways to store energy; unfortunately, most involve converting electricity to another form of energy such as potential (gravitational) energy, like pumping water uphill or lifting heavy weights. These also have relatively little long-term environmental cost. Unfortunately, they're a bit more inefficient (but so are batteries, relative to some other forms of stored energy such as fossil fuels). It'd be interesting if we could find some ways to convert landfills or other urban blight issues into a durable energy store without poisoning the environment.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
> Batteries are extremely expensive per megawatt, not very durable, require carefully controlled temperatures, and their manufacturer and recycling extract a tremendous cost from the environment. For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. None of this is accurate. I encourage you to update your mental model with recent data. Citations below for your convenience. AMA, global energy transition is my passion. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/batteries-texas-consumers-683-million-january-day-january-winter-freeze-aurora/717083/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/batteries-texas-consumers-6... ("Utility Dive: Batteries saved Texas consumers $683M during 2-day January freeze: Aurora Energy Research") https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052 ("HN: China's Batteries Are Now Cheap Enough to Power Huge Shifts") https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40601878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40601878 ("Lazard: IRA brings LCOS of 100MW, 4hr standalone BESS down as low as US$124/MWh" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 ("HN: The biggest EV battery recycling plant in the US is open for business") https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/battery-recycling-shatters-the-myth-of-ev-battery-waste https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/battery-r... | https://archive.today/OjA91 https://archive.today/OjA91 ("Bloomberg: Battery Recycling Shatters the Myth of Electric Vehicle Waste") https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/2023-levelized-cost-of-energyplus/ https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/2023-levelized-cost... ("Lazard: 2023 Levelized Cost Of Energy+") https://raokonidena.substack.com/p/history-of-10000-cycles-or-10-year https://raokonidena.substack.com/p/history-of-10000-cycles-o... ("History of 10,000 cycles or 10 year warranty for Battery Energy Storage System (BESS)") https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/85332.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/85332.pdf ("NREL data shows BESS asset life is 15-20 years.") https://web.archive.org/web/20240728011101/https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/images/figure_6_01_c.png https://web.archive.org/web/20240728011101/https://www.eia.g... (US EIA; gray installations are new battery storage planned for deployment over the next 12 months, June 2024 through May 2025) https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61202 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61202 ("US EIA: U.S. battery storage capacity expected to nearly double in 2024") https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 ("US EIA: Solar and battery storage to make up 81% of new U.S. electric-generating capacity in 2024") https://www.woodmac.com/blogs/energy-pulse/battery-storage-begins-to-play-a-key-role-for-us-grids/ https://www.woodmac.com/blogs/energy-pulse/battery-storage-b... ("Wood Mackenzie: Battery storage begins to play a key role for US grids") https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/07/climate/battery-electricity-solar-california-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/07/climate/batte... ("NY Times: Giant Batteries Are Transforming the Way the U.S. Uses Electricity")
- Herz 2y ago
  > global energy transition is my passion Seeing what you write, it seems more like an obsession disguised to support your ideologies
floatrock 2y ago
> For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. Lithium-ion, sure, but aren't there a whole host of other battery chemistries that are basically too big / too heavy to put on vehicles but a lot cheaper so well suited for stationary storage? Are they all still at the research phase and so currently more expensive than the decades-of-learning-curve lithium-ion?
- shagie 2y ago
  The vanadium redox flow battery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery > For several reasons, including their relative bulkiness, vanadium batteries are typically used for grid energy storage, i.e., attached to power plants/electrical grids. VRFBs' main advantages over other types of battery: no limit on energy capacity can remain discharged indefinitely without damage ... wide operating temperature range including passive cooling long charge/discharge cycle lives: 15,000-20,000 cycles and 10–20 years. low levelized cost: (a few tens of cents), approaching the 2016 $0.05 target stated by the United States Department of Energy and the European Commission Strategic Energy Technology Plan €0.05 target (and yes, there are disadvantages too) See also NPR's story: The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-techno...
  - bboygravity 2y ago
    How is 10 - 20 years "sustainable"?
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      We’re currently experiencing a Cambrian explosion in battery tech. As the technology matures, and we establish a closed loop ecosystem to build and then recycle these systems, longevity can improve over time. To get better at something, you must first suck at it, and 10-20 years is not an immaterial service life for an asset that just sits and hums with no moving parts.
megaman821 2y ago
Not a single thing you said about batteries is true. Pumped hydro is in no way competitive with batteries for most locations. In the future it is likely they won't be competitive in any location.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Better still; the amount of deployed batteries world wide is projected to overtake the amount of deployed hydro this year. Pumped hydro is barely growing. Battery capacity is growing exponentially to eclipse it this year. That's driven by pure economics. Cheaper, better, faster, etc.
  - gunapologist99 2y ago
    Neither of these points are conflicting with my argument. Just because batteries are being deployed it (and I agree that it's cheaper and faster, but not necessarily better on all axes) doesn't mean that their manufacturer is not damaging the environment. In fact, battery manufacture is not damaging the environment in most places where first-world people live, so perhaps they just don't care, but I think that's pretty sad.
    - jillesvangurp 2y ago
      If that wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to challenge your argument; just adding to it. And you are right by adding more arguments to the pile. Not disagreeing at all.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
A recent article asks: "Why did the U.S. miss the battery revolution?" https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-did-the-us-miss-the-battery-revolution https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-did-the-us-miss-the-batter... About half the comments on the article were Americans saying very similar things to your comment and denying there was a revolution to have missed, which kind of answers the question posed.
energy123 2y ago
They're the cheapest form of storage after recent price declines, even cheaper than pumped hydro and compressed air.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

> Batteries are extremely expensive per megawatt, not very durable, require carefully controlled temperatures, and their manufacturer and recycling extract a tremendous cost from the environment. For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. None of this is accurate. I encourage you to update your mental model with recent data. Citations below for your convenience. AMA, global energy transition is my passion. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/batteries-texas-consumers-683-million-january-day-january-winter-freeze-aurora/717083/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/batteries-texas-consumers-6... ("Utility Dive: Batteries saved Texas consumers $683M during 2-day January freeze: Aurora Energy Research") https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052 ("HN: China's Batteries Are Now Cheap Enough to Power Huge Shifts") https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40601878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40601878 ("Lazard: IRA brings LCOS of 100MW, 4hr standalone BESS down as low as US$124/MWh" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35513612 ("HN: The biggest EV battery recycling plant in the US is open for business") https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/battery-recycling-shatters-the-myth-of-ev-battery-waste https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/battery-r... | https://archive.today/OjA91 https://archive.today/OjA91 ("Bloomberg: Battery Recycling Shatters the Myth of Electric Vehicle Waste") https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/2023-levelized-cost-of-energyplus/ https://www.lazard.com/research-insights/2023-levelized-cost... ("Lazard: 2023 Levelized Cost Of Energy+") https://raokonidena.substack.com/p/history-of-10000-cycles-or-10-year https://raokonidena.substack.com/p/history-of-10000-cycles-o... ("History of 10,000 cycles or 10 year warranty for Battery Energy Storage System (BESS)") https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/85332.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/85332.pdf ("NREL data shows BESS asset life is 15-20 years.") https://web.archive.org/web/20240728011101/https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/images/figure_6_01_c.png https://web.archive.org/web/20240728011101/https://www.eia.g... (US EIA; gray installations are new battery storage planned for deployment over the next 12 months, June 2024 through May 2025) https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61202 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61202 ("US EIA: U.S. battery storage capacity expected to nearly double in 2024") https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 ("US EIA: Solar and battery storage to make up 81% of new U.S. electric-generating capacity in 2024") https://www.woodmac.com/blogs/energy-pulse/battery-storage-begins-to-play-a-key-role-for-us-grids/ https://www.woodmac.com/blogs/energy-pulse/battery-storage-b... ("Wood Mackenzie: Battery storage begins to play a key role for US grids") https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/07/climate/battery-electricity-solar-california-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/07/climate/batte... ("NY Times: Giant Batteries Are Transforming the Way the U.S. Uses Electricity")

Herz 2y ago
> global energy transition is my passion Seeing what you write, it seems more like an obsession disguised to support your ideologies

floatrock 2y ago

> For non-mobile usage, batteries shouldn't be seen as any kind of viable solution at scale. Lithium-ion, sure, but aren't there a whole host of other battery chemistries that are basically too big / too heavy to put on vehicles but a lot cheaper so well suited for stationary storage? Are they all still at the research phase and so currently more expensive than the decades-of-learning-curve lithium-ion?

shagie 2y ago
The vanadium redox flow battery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery > For several reasons, including their relative bulkiness, vanadium batteries are typically used for grid energy storage, i.e., attached to power plants/electrical grids. VRFBs' main advantages over other types of battery: no limit on energy capacity can remain discharged indefinitely without damage ... wide operating temperature range including passive cooling long charge/discharge cycle lives: 15,000-20,000 cycles and 10–20 years. low levelized cost: (a few tens of cents), approaching the 2016 $0.05 target stated by the United States Department of Energy and the European Commission Strategic Energy Technology Plan €0.05 target (and yes, there are disadvantages too) See also NPR's story: The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-techno...
- bboygravity 2y ago
  How is 10 - 20 years "sustainable"?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    We’re currently experiencing a Cambrian explosion in battery tech. As the technology matures, and we establish a closed loop ecosystem to build and then recycle these systems, longevity can improve over time. To get better at something, you must first suck at it, and 10-20 years is not an immaterial service life for an asset that just sits and hums with no moving parts.

megaman821 2y ago

Not a single thing you said about batteries is true. Pumped hydro is in no way competitive with batteries for most locations. In the future it is likely they won't be competitive in any location.

jillesvangurp 2y ago
Better still; the amount of deployed batteries world wide is projected to overtake the amount of deployed hydro this year. Pumped hydro is barely growing. Battery capacity is growing exponentially to eclipse it this year. That's driven by pure economics. Cheaper, better, faster, etc.
- gunapologist99 2y ago
  Neither of these points are conflicting with my argument. Just because batteries are being deployed it (and I agree that it's cheaper and faster, but not necessarily better on all axes) doesn't mean that their manufacturer is not damaging the environment. In fact, battery manufacture is not damaging the environment in most places where first-world people live, so perhaps they just don't care, but I think that's pretty sad.
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    If that wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to challenge your argument; just adding to it. And you are right by adding more arguments to the pile. Not disagreeing at all.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

A recent article asks: "Why did the U.S. miss the battery revolution?" https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-did-the-us-miss-the-battery-revolution https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-did-the-us-miss-the-batter... About half the comments on the article were Americans saying very similar things to your comment and denying there was a revolution to have missed, which kind of answers the question posed.

energy123 2y ago

They're the cheapest form of storage after recent price declines, even cheaper than pumped hydro and compressed air.