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> And for producers of advice: Step 0 I think should be "maybe don't give advice". You want to help, you think you're really good, you think it will improve th

by rdtsc 2y ago

> And for producers of advice: Step 0 I think should be "maybe don't give advice". You want to help, you think you're really good, you think it will improve things, but that's not how other people see it. They may seem like they need advice or seem like they are asking for it between the lines, but they just really want to unload or chit chat, or share some difficulty. The answer to that is sometimes to listen and not give advice. Yes, if someone asks for it, and they seem like they really are interested in it, by all means, give it to them. But in many cases, spraying advice around can be frustrating for both the givers and the (often unwilling) receivers of it.

Craighead 2y ago
these people are boring, words spent talking about nothing is akin to throwing fresh food away, I'm not a psychologist and I have my own problems, why should I have to listen to others drone on about nothing when we could be working together to fix either or both of our issues.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  Because much of the time you just haven't realized yet that you don't really know shit about shit, and good friends communicate in a variety of different ways about different subjects, sometimes just listening, sometimes actually helping someone with an issue they've asked for help with. Lack of versatility in that area means one will probably struggle to form more than the most superficial of relationships, because ironically it ends up being more shallow to think you're in a position to do something more impactful than offering your time to listen. It's like coming onto a new team as a junior software dev thinking you'll introduce whatever hot new build tool or refactor the code that sucks that someone wrote 15 years ago, and then getting fired because you're clueless.
- resource_waste 2y ago
  I agree. My wife basically never gives people feedback unless its positive. She is a people pleaser, popular, all that stuff. No one asks her for advice. I am much more controversial. I have to ignore emails and text messages of people asking for advice because it happens too much. (I'm busy with my own life, the people asking for advice are low-mid tier and wont follow it, people are asking for my expertise for free) I've actually hired other people to be a second brain because my wife cannot give negative feedback.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Fascinating. Can you say more about that? How did you find them and vet them?
    - resource_waste 2y ago
      Found them on the website Indeed, I talked to ~20 people on the phone. I had some screening questions.
pdimitar 2y ago
Will second that many times. As a fairly proactive guy who almost never leaves any loose ends in his relationships, I overdid giving the advice and some people started avoiding me. I was bitter about it until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that my mind immediately jumps to potential solutions. But I was severely humbled on that front after I have allowed a super dark period in my life (7-8 years, still ongoing but is now being actively attacked and positive signs are starting to get visible). I began to understand that there are also situations where you can't do almost anything but you still need a kind word. So I started giving that and only vaguely hinting at the potential of an advice (so subtle that most people missed it which I am very okay with) and lo and behold, the new people in my life love chatting with me. We have a saying in our country: "You can't force-feed wisdom and shove it down people's throats like you would do for a sick person who still needs food".
- gedy 2y ago
  > until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. That goes both ways, as many of the people I've run into who just want sympathy, can bring a lot of stress on the listeners. E.g. I can't take hearing complaints about abusive partners, etc so that they feel a little better for the moment, then they march right back to them. Growing up with a serious complainer caused me to instinctively try and fix issues, and to avoid if you don't want that type of help.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Yup. Sometimes all the listening is doing is enabling a very dangerous situation. If someone is the recipient of that kind of complaining as a kid from a parent, it would also explain some ‘don’t even try that towards me’ reactions.
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    Absolutely. No one can listen or provide sympathy indefinitely. Trying to is a short path to burnout. Almost everyone could benefit from being listened to, but I have to remember, it doesn't always have to be me
resource_waste 2y ago
I was at a bakery grand opening from an uneducated rural family. Plenty of their rural friends listened to the difficulties, wished them the best. Bring in the MBA + Industrial Engineer, and tell them some advice on processes, economics, and as a bonus, I was an Electrical Engineer for a few years so I had some advice on their oven problem. What is better? The person that says "You look beautiful", or "You have a piece of fuzz in your hair?"
- stavros 2y ago
  Sometimes I want to hear that I'm beautiful, even with the fuzz in my hair.
  - sowerssix 2y ago
    You are beautiful, even with the fuzz in my hair.
- MikeTheGreat 2y ago
  Thank you for sharing! Based on your last sentence I think we're in agreement that it's probably not great to give someone unsolicited advice (but it's fine if we disagree). I wanted to throw out a couple more thoughts: I think that having experience in the business (or not) is important. I think that sometimes giving advice on an area that one doesn't have experience in can be a weird way to put oneself in a 'one up' position. Kind of a "Look, I don't even do your job, but let me tell you how to do it better" kind of statement. I'm not saying that this was your intention or your effect but I think it's something engineers are prone to - I know I've done this. Wasn't there even a name for this? Something about "dinner party advice"? If this rings a bell for anyone I'd appreciate the help about this. Sometimes I've found that if I have experience in the area I can suggest a small change with a substantial benefit (because I've actually done this enough times to know that the advice will actually help, actually) but even there I'd be really hesitant to offer unsolicited advice. And, as an added bonus, consider that they may have already committed to what they're doing. In which case, even if you're right, you're basically telling them that they've done something wrong - maybe they can fix it (with more effort and/or money) maybe they can't, but that's gotta be an extra burden for them.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Im on the opposite end. I wish people gave more unsolicited advice, or at least asked if I wanted it. I look around and think there is a dearth of advice and opinions. People are so cautious about giving subjective feedback that they dont offer it at all, leading to detriment. I think advice is an important part of a community and a support network, and am exceedingly grateful to those who have offered it to me.
- crngefest 2y ago
  You can instantly improve that situation by asking for advice and feedback.
soheil 2y ago
Advice giving is a bit overrated, lots just want validation, not solutions
TheCleric 2y ago
This is spot on. I took a few counseling courses in college, and the thing I remember most was that we were instructed to never give advice. Ask questions, get clarifications, repeat back information, but don't say "Here's what I would do.." In many ways it was similar to rubber duck debugging, as the goal seemed to be to facilitate the person being counseled on finding the solution on their own by seeing the problem with fresh eyes.
nox101 2y ago
My daughter said she's planning on going to try heroin, fentanyl, and meth this weekend with some friends. Should I give her advice?
- rdtsc 2y ago
  If you're reading and asking HN to find out, it may already be too late ;-)
- fragmede 2y ago
  You’re not actually a parent, are you?
- humanfromearth9 2y ago
  Instead of giving advice, you may show her what these things do to people, and ask her if that's what she wants in her life. Also show her what hard work, focus and dedication does to successful people.
  - nox101 2y ago
    That sounds like advice to me
asdfman123 2y ago
Nine times out of ten, people want to give advice to either 1) to feel cleverer than the person receiving it or 2) get them to stop talking about their problems. If you're struggling with a problem, do you usually need someone to act smarter than you or tell you to be quiet?
yibg 2y ago
Or sometimes worse: Person genuinely wants advise for a real problem, you give advise, which they take, and it turns out badly. Now it's your fault.

by rdtsc 2y ago

Craighead 2y ago

these people are boring, words spent talking about nothing is akin to throwing fresh food away, I'm not a psychologist and I have my own problems, why should I have to listen to others drone on about nothing when we could be working together to fix either or both of our issues.

brailsafe 2y ago
Because much of the time you just haven't realized yet that you don't really know shit about shit, and good friends communicate in a variety of different ways about different subjects, sometimes just listening, sometimes actually helping someone with an issue they've asked for help with. Lack of versatility in that area means one will probably struggle to form more than the most superficial of relationships, because ironically it ends up being more shallow to think you're in a position to do something more impactful than offering your time to listen. It's like coming onto a new team as a junior software dev thinking you'll introduce whatever hot new build tool or refactor the code that sucks that someone wrote 15 years ago, and then getting fired because you're clueless.
resource_waste 2y ago
I agree. My wife basically never gives people feedback unless its positive. She is a people pleaser, popular, all that stuff. No one asks her for advice. I am much more controversial. I have to ignore emails and text messages of people asking for advice because it happens too much. (I'm busy with my own life, the people asking for advice are low-mid tier and wont follow it, people are asking for my expertise for free) I've actually hired other people to be a second brain because my wife cannot give negative feedback.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Fascinating. Can you say more about that? How did you find them and vet them?
  - resource_waste 2y ago
    Found them on the website Indeed, I talked to ~20 people on the phone. I had some screening questions.

pdimitar 2y ago

Will second that many times. As a fairly proactive guy who almost never leaves any loose ends in his relationships, I overdid giving the advice and some people started avoiding me. I was bitter about it until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that my mind immediately jumps to potential solutions. But I was severely humbled on that front after I have allowed a super dark period in my life (7-8 years, still ongoing but is now being actively attacked and positive signs are starting to get visible). I began to understand that there are also situations where you can't do almost anything but you still need a kind word. So I started giving that and only vaguely hinting at the potential of an advice (so subtle that most people missed it which I am very okay with) and lo and behold, the new people in my life love chatting with me. We have a saying in our country: "You can't force-feed wisdom and shove it down people's throats like you would do for a sick person who still needs food".

gedy 2y ago
> until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. That goes both ways, as many of the people I've run into who just want sympathy, can bring a lot of stress on the listeners. E.g. I can't take hearing complaints about abusive partners, etc so that they feel a little better for the moment, then they march right back to them. Growing up with a serious complainer caused me to instinctively try and fix issues, and to avoid if you don't want that type of help.
- lazide 2y ago
  Yup. Sometimes all the listening is doing is enabling a very dangerous situation. If someone is the recipient of that kind of complaining as a kid from a parent, it would also explain some ‘don’t even try that towards me’ reactions.
- kelseyfrog 2y ago
  Absolutely. No one can listen or provide sympathy indefinitely. Trying to is a short path to burnout. Almost everyone could benefit from being listened to, but I have to remember, it doesn't always have to be me

resource_waste 2y ago

I was at a bakery grand opening from an uneducated rural family. Plenty of their rural friends listened to the difficulties, wished them the best. Bring in the MBA + Industrial Engineer, and tell them some advice on processes, economics, and as a bonus, I was an Electrical Engineer for a few years so I had some advice on their oven problem. What is better? The person that says "You look beautiful", or "You have a piece of fuzz in your hair?"

stavros 2y ago
Sometimes I want to hear that I'm beautiful, even with the fuzz in my hair.
- sowerssix 2y ago
  You are beautiful, even with the fuzz in my hair.
MikeTheGreat 2y ago
Thank you for sharing! Based on your last sentence I think we're in agreement that it's probably not great to give someone unsolicited advice (but it's fine if we disagree). I wanted to throw out a couple more thoughts: I think that having experience in the business (or not) is important. I think that sometimes giving advice on an area that one doesn't have experience in can be a weird way to put oneself in a 'one up' position. Kind of a "Look, I don't even do your job, but let me tell you how to do it better" kind of statement. I'm not saying that this was your intention or your effect but I think it's something engineers are prone to - I know I've done this. Wasn't there even a name for this? Something about "dinner party advice"? If this rings a bell for anyone I'd appreciate the help about this. Sometimes I've found that if I have experience in the area I can suggest a small change with a substantial benefit (because I've actually done this enough times to know that the advice will actually help, actually) but even there I'd be really hesitant to offer unsolicited advice. And, as an added bonus, consider that they may have already committed to what they're doing. In which case, even if you're right, you're basically telling them that they've done something wrong - maybe they can fix it (with more effort and/or money) maybe they can't, but that's gotta be an extra burden for them.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Im on the opposite end. I wish people gave more unsolicited advice, or at least asked if I wanted it. I look around and think there is a dearth of advice and opinions. People are so cautious about giving subjective feedback that they dont offer it at all, leading to detriment. I think advice is an important part of a community and a support network, and am exceedingly grateful to those who have offered it to me.

crngefest 2y ago
You can instantly improve that situation by asking for advice and feedback.

soheil 2y ago

Advice giving is a bit overrated, lots just want validation, not solutions

TheCleric 2y ago

This is spot on. I took a few counseling courses in college, and the thing I remember most was that we were instructed to never give advice. Ask questions, get clarifications, repeat back information, but don't say "Here's what I would do.." In many ways it was similar to rubber duck debugging, as the goal seemed to be to facilitate the person being counseled on finding the solution on their own by seeing the problem with fresh eyes.

nox101 2y ago

My daughter said she's planning on going to try heroin, fentanyl, and meth this weekend with some friends. Should I give her advice?

rdtsc 2y ago
If you're reading and asking HN to find out, it may already be too late ;-)
fragmede 2y ago
You’re not actually a parent, are you?
humanfromearth9 2y ago
Instead of giving advice, you may show her what these things do to people, and ask her if that's what she wants in her life. Also show her what hard work, focus and dedication does to successful people.
- nox101 2y ago
  That sounds like advice to me

asdfman123 2y ago

Nine times out of ten, people want to give advice to either 1) to feel cleverer than the person receiving it or 2) get them to stop talking about their problems. If you're struggling with a problem, do you usually need someone to act smarter than you or tell you to be quiet?

yibg 2y ago

Or sometimes worse: Person genuinely wants advise for a real problem, you give advise, which they take, and it turns out badly. Now it's your fault.