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As someone who has biked in Minnesota winters as part of a commute, it sucks. I don't want cars taken away. I run to get my exercise. My commute to work is shor

As someone who has biked in Minnesota winters as part of a commute, it sucks. I don't want cars taken away. I run to get my exercise. My commute to work is short. I don't sit in traffic most days.

oblio 2y ago
Isn't that a strawman? Nobody wants to take cars away, not even in the most extreme countries. What they generally do is they want people to have comparable options until some folks just give up their cars and pocket the savings, accepting the discomfort caused by the constant lack of a car.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  > Nobody wants to take cars away In a lot of these discussions, people do often comment denigrating people who drive and acting as if they must walk/bike/etc and there's something wrong with them if they don't want to, without considering whether the tradeoffs make sense for them or not. Those kinds of comments alienate people. Giving people options would be great. Making a balance would be great. Separating car and pedestrian infrastructure would be great. Massively reducing pedestrian fatalities is incredibly important. All of those things would be much easier to advocate for and enact without those kinds of comments.
  - oblio 2y ago
    > In a lot of these discussions, people do often comment denigrating people who drive and acting as if they must walk/bike/etc and there's something wrong with them if they don't want to, without considering whether the tradeoffs make sense for them or not. Those kinds of comments alienate people. The amount of in-real life hostility from the car driver community is 1000x but car drivers don't realize it. Hostility on the roads themselves, hostility to ANY proposal that would reduce the number of lanes (to dedicate to buses, cycling, sidewalks, etc). So it's kind of understandable why there's so much pent-up anger.
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      Absolutely. I've seen the same hostility you're talking about. These kinds of policy discussions would go far better with a lot more empathy across the board for perspectives other than ones' own.
consteval 2y ago
It sounds like you admit cars are awful, so awful you have to take measures to combat their awfulness. Like choosing a close place to live, running to combat the health effects, and even then you still get some awfulness, like traffic. I hear these types of arguments all the time for all different things.

As someone who has biked in Minnesota winters as part of a commute, it sucks. I don't want cars taken away. I run to get my exercise. My commute to work is short. I don't sit in traffic most days.

oblio 2y ago

Isn't that a strawman? Nobody wants to take cars away, not even in the most extreme countries. What they generally do is they want people to have comparable options until some folks just give up their cars and pocket the savings, accepting the discomfort caused by the constant lack of a car.

JoshTriplett 2y ago
> Nobody wants to take cars away In a lot of these discussions, people do often comment denigrating people who drive and acting as if they must walk/bike/etc and there's something wrong with them if they don't want to, without considering whether the tradeoffs make sense for them or not. Those kinds of comments alienate people. Giving people options would be great. Making a balance would be great. Separating car and pedestrian infrastructure would be great. Massively reducing pedestrian fatalities is incredibly important. All of those things would be much easier to advocate for and enact without those kinds of comments.
- oblio 2y ago
  > In a lot of these discussions, people do often comment denigrating people who drive and acting as if they must walk/bike/etc and there's something wrong with them if they don't want to, without considering whether the tradeoffs make sense for them or not. Those kinds of comments alienate people. The amount of in-real life hostility from the car driver community is 1000x but car drivers don't realize it. Hostility on the roads themselves, hostility to ANY proposal that would reduce the number of lanes (to dedicate to buses, cycling, sidewalks, etc). So it's kind of understandable why there's so much pent-up anger.
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    Absolutely. I've seen the same hostility you're talking about. These kinds of policy discussions would go far better with a lot more empathy across the board for perspectives other than ones' own.

consteval 2y ago

It sounds like you admit cars are awful, so awful you have to take measures to combat their awfulness. Like choosing a close place to live, running to combat the health effects, and even then you still get some awfulness, like traffic. I hear these types of arguments all the time for all different things.