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> and I wouldn't assume that the false-positive rate for cameras is actually worse than for human police. Seems like a strange assumption. A 24/7 camera syste

> and I wouldn't assume that the false-positive rate for cameras is actually worse than for human police. Seems like a strange assumption. A 24/7 camera system automating tickets will produce infinitely more infractions than any human, leading to infinitely more false positives.

defrost 2y ago
Would that be aleph-null infinite or higher? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number Regardless, the challenge is to implement a robust system that allows for and streamlines appeals. Here in our jurisdiction traffic infringements are issued with a clear good resolution image of an alleged infraction, a link to view raw data on police servers, and fast means to pay and a choice to lodge an appeal. To appeal means full raw evidence can be viewed in person, frames before and after event can be seen, and individuals can challenge equipment calibration or assert they were not driving or that the plates were on wrong vehicle (stolen vehicle ID), etc. Appeals have been won on the grounds that "other events" caused infraction making it reasonable, that vehicle was incorrectly ID'd, that another person was driving at time, etc. Technical nerds have even won appeals by arguing that radar gear wasn't calibrated and angle of setup made accurate reading impossible with the margin of error claimed.
- cherry_tree 2y ago
  > the challenge is to implement a robust system that allows for and streamlines appeals. The challenge is how do we get people to not commit infractions. Any other goal creates perverse outcomes. Automating those other goals creates even worse outcomes.
  - defrost 2y ago
    There is no such solution that doesn't in the process eliminate free will, given the ability to speed (or drive the wrong way, turn against signal, etc) some will speed (or otherwise infract) to some degree or another. A well implemented and fair system that catches a proportion of speeders will result in fewer speeders overall. The more that pressure to catch them all increases the more unrest and pushback is provoked. At some point there's an acceptable comprimise between the public and the system employed by the public to improve order on public assets. Or you can go full autocracy if you wish. Most prefer not to.

defrost 2y ago

Would that be aleph-null infinite or higher? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number Regardless, the challenge is to implement a robust system that allows for and streamlines appeals. Here in our jurisdiction traffic infringements are issued with a clear good resolution image of an alleged infraction, a link to view raw data on police servers, and fast means to pay and a choice to lodge an appeal. To appeal means full raw evidence can be viewed in person, frames before and after event can be seen, and individuals can challenge equipment calibration or assert they were not driving or that the plates were on wrong vehicle (stolen vehicle ID), etc. Appeals have been won on the grounds that "other events" caused infraction making it reasonable, that vehicle was incorrectly ID'd, that another person was driving at time, etc. Technical nerds have even won appeals by arguing that radar gear wasn't calibrated and angle of setup made accurate reading impossible with the margin of error claimed.

cherry_tree 2y ago
> the challenge is to implement a robust system that allows for and streamlines appeals. The challenge is how do we get people to not commit infractions. Any other goal creates perverse outcomes. Automating those other goals creates even worse outcomes.
- defrost 2y ago
  There is no such solution that doesn't in the process eliminate free will, given the ability to speed (or drive the wrong way, turn against signal, etc) some will speed (or otherwise infract) to some degree or another. A well implemented and fair system that catches a proportion of speeders will result in fewer speeders overall. The more that pressure to catch them all increases the more unrest and pushback is provoked. At some point there's an acceptable comprimise between the public and the system employed by the public to improve order on public assets. Or you can go full autocracy if you wish. Most prefer not to.