3 ms·

Every time this topic comes up I point to the fact that the television industry makes gigantic volumes of content, reasonably on-schedule and on-budget. Movies

Every time this topic comes up I point to the fact that the television industry makes gigantic volumes of content, reasonably on-schedule and on-budget. Movies have somewhat different math, but there's a huge economic segment routinely producing creative content with a high proportion of salary expenses, much of which is unionized. It seems crazy to discuss gamer salaries without discussing how normally dysfunctional game studios are, with crunch time all year round, intense burnout of young employees, terrible working conditions, and rarely hitting schedule or budget constraints. In other words, there's a huge opportunity cost in reforming the process by which studios make games, and all they need to do is look at TV to see how to do it. Hell, just hiring some television producers would probably bring a level of sanity as-yet-unseen. Part of what drives high salaries in gaming is the terrible working conditions. You could pay less just by saying "we work 9 to 5 and value quality of life."

aschearer 2y ago
I would love to hear more concrete recommendations or reading. It's an interesting hypothesis! That said I am a bit skeptical given the game industry has failed to sort this out for several decades... perhaps it's simply ignorance but occam's razor has me thinking there's another factor. Still, it would be interesting to hear more.
surfingdino 2y ago
> Every time this topic comes up I point to the fact that the television industry makes gigantic volumes of content, reasonably on-schedule and on-budget. Movies have somewhat different math, but there's a huge economic segment routinely producing creative content with a high proportion of salary expenses, much of which is unionized. TV and movies are produced by people who understand storytelling. This is something that has been discussed in the game dev industry ever since the arrival of CD-ROMs. Suddenly, free of the constraints of floppy disks, devs thought they could create huge fantastic worlds to roam in. They sure did, but they have lost the plot. CD-ROM and then DVDs removed one of important constraints that forced creativity; cheap 24bit 3d cards removed another. And yet, one of the most fun games in recent history is Minecraft, a game that does not need gigabytes of textures or fancy 3d hardware.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>It seems crazy to discuss gamer salaries without discussing how normally dysfunctional game studios are Some oft quoted statistic states that the average game dev is in industry for 5 years. The churn is insane and it doesn't surprise me that there's a lot of chaos slowing matters down. This is sadly a common thing across all of America, but it may hit creative endeavors working in cutting edge tech even harder. Some non-tech office working on crud and IT can probably operate for years, decades before its too late. A bad release can tank a studio right there. As a contrast, look at Nintendo. an absolutely unthinkable (for America) 97% retention rate. IIRC 4 of the 6 people who worked on the original 1980 Super Mario worked on the 2023 Mario Wonder. They may have a few delays but only in crazy circumstance and very rarely a significant one once they lock in (Animal crossing is the biggest example). On the contrary, They pushed up Xenoblade Chronicles 3 a few months, meaning they had a game either ahead of schedule or sitting and waiting to release (again, unthinkable seeing western studios). They are far from perfect (their Western branches more r less work the same way as any other), but it's clear that their investment in talent has given them a portfolio and reputation that has endured decades. ----------------------- Anyways, I'm not a producer, so I don't have the answers on how to fix this. My only recourse is to setup a structure to make my own games, and make as complete a game as I can before recruiting a few (and only a few) hands to get it across the finish line. Smaller staff means lower bars to success, recruiting late means there's not much creative clashing on what/how the game plays. a focus on shipping over vast scales and maintaining a service.

aschearer 2y ago

I would love to hear more concrete recommendations or reading. It's an interesting hypothesis! That said I am a bit skeptical given the game industry has failed to sort this out for several decades... perhaps it's simply ignorance but occam's razor has me thinking there's another factor. Still, it would be interesting to hear more.

surfingdino 2y ago

> Every time this topic comes up I point to the fact that the television industry makes gigantic volumes of content, reasonably on-schedule and on-budget. Movies have somewhat different math, but there's a huge economic segment routinely producing creative content with a high proportion of salary expenses, much of which is unionized. TV and movies are produced by people who understand storytelling. This is something that has been discussed in the game dev industry ever since the arrival of CD-ROMs. Suddenly, free of the constraints of floppy disks, devs thought they could create huge fantastic worlds to roam in. They sure did, but they have lost the plot. CD-ROM and then DVDs removed one of important constraints that forced creativity; cheap 24bit 3d cards removed another. And yet, one of the most fun games in recent history is Minecraft, a game that does not need gigabytes of textures or fancy 3d hardware.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>It seems crazy to discuss gamer salaries without discussing how normally dysfunctional game studios are Some oft quoted statistic states that the average game dev is in industry for 5 years. The churn is insane and it doesn't surprise me that there's a lot of chaos slowing matters down. This is sadly a common thing across all of America, but it may hit creative endeavors working in cutting edge tech even harder. Some non-tech office working on crud and IT can probably operate for years, decades before its too late. A bad release can tank a studio right there. As a contrast, look at Nintendo. an absolutely unthinkable (for America) 97% retention rate. IIRC 4 of the 6 people who worked on the original 1980 Super Mario worked on the 2023 Mario Wonder. They may have a few delays but only in crazy circumstance and very rarely a significant one once they lock in (Animal crossing is the biggest example). On the contrary, They pushed up Xenoblade Chronicles 3 a few months, meaning they had a game either ahead of schedule or sitting and waiting to release (again, unthinkable seeing western studios). They are far from perfect (their Western branches more r less work the same way as any other), but it's clear that their investment in talent has given them a portfolio and reputation that has endured decades. ----------------------- Anyways, I'm not a producer, so I don't have the answers on how to fix this. My only recourse is to setup a structure to make my own games, and make as complete a game as I can before recruiting a few (and only a few) hands to get it across the finish line. Smaller staff means lower bars to success, recruiting late means there's not much creative clashing on what/how the game plays. a focus on shipping over vast scales and maintaining a service.