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So what is your working proposal to end "this shit" -- this evil war propped up by Goebbelsian machinations, per your insinuation -- then? Specifically which o

So what is your working proposal to end "this shit" -- this evil war propped up by Goebbelsian machinations, per your insinuation -- then? Specifically which of Ukraine's regions are you willing to hand over (in terms of granting permanent recognized sovereignty) to Russia in order to make that happen? Because that's the name of the game, here.

sabbaticaldev 2y ago
when you put yourself in a dead end solution, cut the loss short might be, unfortunately, the best solution
- racional 2y ago
  So the fate of the people directly affected is of such negligible concern to you -- that you don't see a need to give a straight answer?
  - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
    they chose to fight and lost. I rather prefer them to live than keep dying a meaningless death. Ukrainians were led to believe they could win a war against Russia which have never been true.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Every day that keeps Russian rapists and murderers away from more Ukrainian cities, towns and villages is a victory. There is nothing meaningless about protecting your loved ones from the fate that people in the occupied territories have suffered.
      - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
        the leadership that dragged the whole country to the war should respond for their crimes then.
        mopsi 2y ago
        Indeed, Putin and his cronies should be hanged for starting the war.
        mistermann 2y ago
        Should all people who participated in the underlying causality be hanged, or only the ones that you identify (as a consequence of "information" you have consumed about "reality", which is also a part of the chain of causality)? I am not necessarily opposed to hanging, but I would prefer that we make sure we catch all guilty parties. If you are going to do a job, might as well do it right!
ossobuco 2y ago
> Specifically which of Ukraine's regions are you willing to hand over All of them, it that's what it takes to stop the countless deaths.
- mopsi 2y ago
  The experience of the occupied territories tells that it doesn't.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    Let's check the numbers we have from reports so far....yes it does. Objectively and undeniably. Even if you don't want to base your opinion on data, just check how is life in Mariupol today[0][1]. I don't see mass killings or rapes, just people living their lives. - [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StYKfo3mh6Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StYKfo3mh6Q - [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNKgCMXeKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNKgCMXeKo
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Reports from trustworthy sources stress that their numbers severely undercount victims due to lack of access. We have propaganda videos from the beachfront, but no access to the mass graves around Mariupol that can be seen from space. Not to mention the hidden away sites like Izium mass graves that were uncovered only after liberation. You don't see mass graves and concentration camps on German news reels either, "just people living their lives" and no hint of the Holocaust.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        These mass graves, are they in the room with us? It's war, obviously people died during the battle for Mariupol, but people aren't dying anymore, in fact Russia has spent huge amounts of money to rebuild the city and "win over the hearts and minds" of the locals. Don't take my word for granted, read the BBC[0]. If nothing this should be an argument to cease all hostilities as soon as possible, rather than making countless more people die in a contest over who will rule a specific piece of land. Now, do you have any proof of mass killings and rapes going on now? - [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64887890 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64887890
mistermann 2y ago
> Because that's the name of the game, here. We could start by not making stuff up and posting it as if it is fact. Revolutionary yes, but perhaps worth a try. People dying is rather important after all, but perhaps not that important.
- racional 2y ago
  What's being made up here? Those are Putin's stated conditions for ending this thing.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Do Humans ever speak not entirely untruthfully? Like in geopolitics, or like you in this comment section? If you take everything (that the West prints) at face value, do you take war seriously (an accusation you made of someone else, based on questionable reasoning)?
coldtea 2y ago
>Specifically which of Ukraine's regions are you willing to hand over (in terms of granting permanent recognized sovereignty) to Russia in order to make that happen? When you lose a war or the toll is too high to continue it, you make consessions. That has been true throughout history, and it's how such wars usually end. Establishing a neutral zone in the southern parts would be the best option at this point. Even better to not have fuelled the start of war in the first place. Of course who'd thought not respecting decades of promises, expanding a Cold-War-era coalition eastwards right to the neighbors borders, having an orange revolution to topple the government and bring one fueling nationalism instead of promoting co-operation and understanding between the two ethnic population groups in the country, would ever have caused all this? It only ever worked like that in every place imperialism/colonialism passed from.
- racional 2y ago
  A list of regions, was the ask of the question. If you can't provide a straight answer -- then the fate of the people living there is obviously of no particular concern to you. Establishing a neutral zone in the southern parts would be the best option at this point. Permanent recognized sovereignty is Putin's demand -- not a "neutral zone".
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >A list of regions, was the ask of the question. Perhaps, but others in a conversation can have their own idea of how to respond. How about that? >If you can't provide a straight answer -- then the fate of the people living there is obviously of no particular concern to you. The fate of the people dying there is what should be the concern. And ending the whole shitshow. As for the specific regions, that's for the peace negotiations to define, I'm pretty sure it wont be based on HN suggestions. >Permanent recognized sovereignty is Putin's demand -- not a "neutral zone" Didn't you start by accepting that when you're losing a war, you make concessions? As far as concessions go, a sovereign buffer zone is a pretty low bar. The populations of Russian ethnic origin in those weren't exactly in love with Kiev either, to begin with.
    - 2y ago

sabbaticaldev 2y ago

when you put yourself in a dead end solution, cut the loss short might be, unfortunately, the best solution

racional 2y ago
So the fate of the people directly affected is of such negligible concern to you -- that you don't see a need to give a straight answer?
- sabbaticaldev 2y ago
  they chose to fight and lost. I rather prefer them to live than keep dying a meaningless death. Ukrainians were led to believe they could win a war against Russia which have never been true.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    Every day that keeps Russian rapists and murderers away from more Ukrainian cities, towns and villages is a victory. There is nothing meaningless about protecting your loved ones from the fate that people in the occupied territories have suffered.
    - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
      the leadership that dragged the whole country to the war should respond for their crimes then.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        Indeed, Putin and his cronies should be hanged for starting the war.
        mistermann 2y ago
        Should all people who participated in the underlying causality be hanged, or only the ones that you identify (as a consequence of "information" you have consumed about "reality", which is also a part of the chain of causality)? I am not necessarily opposed to hanging, but I would prefer that we make sure we catch all guilty parties. If you are going to do a job, might as well do it right!

ossobuco 2y ago

> Specifically which of Ukraine's regions are you willing to hand over All of them, it that's what it takes to stop the countless deaths.

mopsi 2y ago
The experience of the occupied territories tells that it doesn't.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  Let's check the numbers we have from reports so far....yes it does. Objectively and undeniably. Even if you don't want to base your opinion on data, just check how is life in Mariupol today[0][1]. I don't see mass killings or rapes, just people living their lives. - [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StYKfo3mh6Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StYKfo3mh6Q - [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNKgCMXeKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNKgCMXeKo
  - mopsi 2y ago
    Reports from trustworthy sources stress that their numbers severely undercount victims due to lack of access. We have propaganda videos from the beachfront, but no access to the mass graves around Mariupol that can be seen from space. Not to mention the hidden away sites like Izium mass graves that were uncovered only after liberation. You don't see mass graves and concentration camps on German news reels either, "just people living their lives" and no hint of the Holocaust.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      These mass graves, are they in the room with us? It's war, obviously people died during the battle for Mariupol, but people aren't dying anymore, in fact Russia has spent huge amounts of money to rebuild the city and "win over the hearts and minds" of the locals. Don't take my word for granted, read the BBC[0]. If nothing this should be an argument to cease all hostilities as soon as possible, rather than making countless more people die in a contest over who will rule a specific piece of land. Now, do you have any proof of mass killings and rapes going on now? - [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64887890 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64887890

mistermann 2y ago

> Because that's the name of the game, here. We could start by not making stuff up and posting it as if it is fact. Revolutionary yes, but perhaps worth a try. People dying is rather important after all, but perhaps not that important.

racional 2y ago
What's being made up here? Those are Putin's stated conditions for ending this thing.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Do Humans ever speak not entirely untruthfully? Like in geopolitics, or like you in this comment section? If you take everything (that the West prints) at face value, do you take war seriously (an accusation you made of someone else, based on questionable reasoning)?

coldtea 2y ago

>Specifically which of Ukraine's regions are you willing to hand over (in terms of granting permanent recognized sovereignty) to Russia in order to make that happen? When you lose a war or the toll is too high to continue it, you make consessions. That has been true throughout history, and it's how such wars usually end. Establishing a neutral zone in the southern parts would be the best option at this point. Even better to not have fuelled the start of war in the first place. Of course who'd thought not respecting decades of promises, expanding a Cold-War-era coalition eastwards right to the neighbors borders, having an orange revolution to topple the government and bring one fueling nationalism instead of promoting co-operation and understanding between the two ethnic population groups in the country, would ever have caused all this? It only ever worked like that in every place imperialism/colonialism passed from.

racional 2y ago
A list of regions, was the ask of the question. If you can't provide a straight answer -- then the fate of the people living there is obviously of no particular concern to you. Establishing a neutral zone in the southern parts would be the best option at this point. Permanent recognized sovereignty is Putin's demand -- not a "neutral zone".
- coldtea 2y ago
  >A list of regions, was the ask of the question. Perhaps, but others in a conversation can have their own idea of how to respond. How about that? >If you can't provide a straight answer -- then the fate of the people living there is obviously of no particular concern to you. The fate of the people dying there is what should be the concern. And ending the whole shitshow. As for the specific regions, that's for the peace negotiations to define, I'm pretty sure it wont be based on HN suggestions. >Permanent recognized sovereignty is Putin's demand -- not a "neutral zone" Didn't you start by accepting that when you're losing a war, you make concessions? As far as concessions go, a sovereign buffer zone is a pretty low bar. The populations of Russian ethnic origin in those weren't exactly in love with Kiev either, to begin with.
  - 2y ago