5 ms·

Far-left extremists likely behind France rail sabotage, interior minister says

24 points by ossobuco 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
marvel_boy 2y ago
[flagged]
- ossobuco 2y ago
  The suspects are anarchists, they generally despise socialist governments, and most of all they despise both modern Russia and what was the USSR.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    You’re giving way too much credit to ideological consistency here. If a random Russian guy is willing to bankroll your anarchist LARP, plenty of disaffected young morons will happily take that money under the banner of anarchism.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      So as a "disaffected young moron" you'd be willing to risk life imprisonment and crippling fines just because some "random Russian guy" would bankroll your anarchist LARP, in which you don't even believe? Seems to me like you're giving too much credit to ideological inconsistency here. I know european anarchists and they're as ideological as it gets, much more than the average communist as commies are usually more pragmatic. The disillusioned anarchists simply quit the lifestyle as there's nothing to benefit from it if you don't strongly believe in it: only hardship, unpaid work, and sacrifices.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        No I'm saying that sometimes people's interests align and they're willing to look past ideological differences to collaborate. More specifically: an attack can be committed by anarchists and be attributable to Russia, even if anarchists hypothetically hate Russia/USSR/whatever. Russia has been committing arson attacks throughout Europe, it's totally fair to suspect them and "it was actually anarchists" shouldn't obviate that suspicion nearly as much as you're suggesting it should.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        Seems to me like you actually want Russia to be guilty of this, even in spit of all evidence found so far.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        I'm certainly open to alternatives, but yes we should be seriously evaluating this possibility, given... you know... reality: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russias-brazen-intensifying-sabotage-campaign-europe-rcna147178 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russias-brazen-i... https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/europe-on-high-alert-after-suspected-moscow-linked-arson-and-sabotage https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/europe... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/3-arrested-kremlin-plot-stage-141713595.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/3-arrested-kremlin-plot-stage-1417... "It was committed by anarchists" just doesn't address the hypothesis at all.
  - mmaniac 2y ago
    Doing the dirty work of someone whose ambitions differ from yours due to coincidentally aligned short term objectives is exactly what makes one a useful idiot. Anarchists wanted the Tsar gone. Didn't work out for them in the long run.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      Honestly, who wouldn't want the Tsar gone?
      - mmaniac 2y ago
        Exactly.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
joenot443 2y ago
Reddit is having a (characteristically) weird reaction to this news. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1eetmee/farleft_extremists_likely_behind_france_rail/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1eetmee/farleft_ext... I don't get why it's so hard to believe that anarchists would do exactly what they say they want to do. The anarchists I've met are steadfast about anti-nationalism and it's hard to imagine a more globally nationalistic event than the Olympics.
- mistermann 2y ago
  There is widespread desire for this to be Russian in origin. HN had plenty of this as well. Propaganda remains popular because it works so well. Humans, including smart ones, are highly susceptible to well told stories. This is a very important topic, but there is something about it that makes it essentially impossible to discuss at the object level (during a specific incident) without people losing control. Maybe certain kinds of thinking are like juggling. A previous discussion (search on Russia): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41076831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41076831
  - coldtea 2y ago
    It would help justify continuing support for funding the Ukraine war and further militarization, to a public tired of this shit. Such operations are a tale as old as Goebbels.
    - mistermann 2y ago
      "Justification" is more of the same thing: very powerful Meme Magic, the root cause of these problems. Find some culture war discussions online and search for that term. Or, vice versa: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22does+not+justify%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22justification%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://www.google.com/search?q=%22is+not+justified%22+site%3Areddit.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22is+not+justified%22+site%... https://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification%22+site%3Areddit.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification%22+site%3Ar... Look at all the confused yet ultra-confident Humans!
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
jerrymcflurry 2y ago
[flagged]
- mistermann 2y ago
  I hope they are real people - this way we know where a crucially important bug deep in the system exists.
- tim333 2y ago
  Well there were two lead suspects and Russia was one. Russia's general invading and slaughtering tends to bias people against it a bit.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    I got the feeling that most people didn't just suspect Russia but wanted it to be guilty, with all the global consequences that would come with it. The reactions to this news around the web confirm it.
    - jerrymcflurry 2y ago
      Pretty much, this news didn't make it to the front page of HN like the other one did, but the downvotes are real. Happy Brave New World.
self_awareness 2y ago
I don't get it. Why would they sabotage their own party? Is this sabotage a part of the opening ceremony?

24 points by ossobuco 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

marvel_boy 2y ago

[flagged]

ossobuco 2y ago
The suspects are anarchists, they generally despise socialist governments, and most of all they despise both modern Russia and what was the USSR.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  You’re giving way too much credit to ideological consistency here. If a random Russian guy is willing to bankroll your anarchist LARP, plenty of disaffected young morons will happily take that money under the banner of anarchism.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    So as a "disaffected young moron" you'd be willing to risk life imprisonment and crippling fines just because some "random Russian guy" would bankroll your anarchist LARP, in which you don't even believe? Seems to me like you're giving too much credit to ideological inconsistency here. I know european anarchists and they're as ideological as it gets, much more than the average communist as commies are usually more pragmatic. The disillusioned anarchists simply quit the lifestyle as there's nothing to benefit from it if you don't strongly believe in it: only hardship, unpaid work, and sacrifices.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      No I'm saying that sometimes people's interests align and they're willing to look past ideological differences to collaborate. More specifically: an attack can be committed by anarchists and be attributable to Russia, even if anarchists hypothetically hate Russia/USSR/whatever. Russia has been committing arson attacks throughout Europe, it's totally fair to suspect them and "it was actually anarchists" shouldn't obviate that suspicion nearly as much as you're suggesting it should.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        Seems to me like you actually want Russia to be guilty of this, even in spit of all evidence found so far.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        I'm certainly open to alternatives, but yes we should be seriously evaluating this possibility, given... you know... reality: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russias-brazen-intensifying-sabotage-campaign-europe-rcna147178 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/russias-brazen-i... https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/europe-on-high-alert-after-suspected-moscow-linked-arson-and-sabotage https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/europe... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/3-arrested-kremlin-plot-stage-141713595.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/3-arrested-kremlin-plot-stage-1417... "It was committed by anarchists" just doesn't address the hypothesis at all.
- mmaniac 2y ago
  Doing the dirty work of someone whose ambitions differ from yours due to coincidentally aligned short term objectives is exactly what makes one a useful idiot. Anarchists wanted the Tsar gone. Didn't work out for them in the long run.
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    Honestly, who wouldn't want the Tsar gone?
    - mmaniac 2y ago
      Exactly.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

joenot443 2y ago

Reddit is having a (characteristically) weird reaction to this news. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1eetmee/farleft_extremists_likely_behind_france_rail/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1eetmee/farleft_ext... I don't get why it's so hard to believe that anarchists would do exactly what they say they want to do. The anarchists I've met are steadfast about anti-nationalism and it's hard to imagine a more globally nationalistic event than the Olympics.

mistermann 2y ago
There is widespread desire for this to be Russian in origin. HN had plenty of this as well. Propaganda remains popular because it works so well. Humans, including smart ones, are highly susceptible to well told stories. This is a very important topic, but there is something about it that makes it essentially impossible to discuss at the object level (during a specific incident) without people losing control. Maybe certain kinds of thinking are like juggling. A previous discussion (search on Russia): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41076831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41076831
- coldtea 2y ago
  It would help justify continuing support for funding the Ukraine war and further militarization, to a public tired of this shit. Such operations are a tale as old as Goebbels.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    "Justification" is more of the same thing: very powerful Meme Magic, the root cause of these problems. Find some culture war discussions online and search for that term. Or, vice versa: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22does+not+justify%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22justification%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://www.google.com/search?q=%22is+not+justified%22+site%3Areddit.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22is+not+justified%22+site%... https://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification%22+site%3Areddit.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22justification%22+site%3Ar... Look at all the confused yet ultra-confident Humans!

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

jerrymcflurry 2y ago

[flagged]

mistermann 2y ago
I hope they are real people - this way we know where a crucially important bug deep in the system exists.
tim333 2y ago
Well there were two lead suspects and Russia was one. Russia's general invading and slaughtering tends to bias people against it a bit.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  I got the feeling that most people didn't just suspect Russia but wanted it to be guilty, with all the global consequences that would come with it. The reactions to this news around the web confirm it.
  - jerrymcflurry 2y ago
    Pretty much, this news didn't make it to the front page of HN like the other one did, but the downvotes are real. Happy Brave New World.

self_awareness 2y ago

I don't get it. Why would they sabotage their own party? Is this sabotage a part of the opening ceremony?