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I don't understand why intel doesn't make their E-cores use double pumped AVX512 to solve this issue (or just make P-core only CPUs for desktops like it should)

I don't understand why intel doesn't make their E-cores use double pumped AVX512 to solve this issue (or just make P-core only CPUs for desktops like it should). They have had years to fix this by now. It's annoying that despite AMD's support, market share makes the adoption of this not happen anyway, and the AVX10 thing will unfortunately allow them to hold back the world even longer. What I like to see (for desktop) is: better cores, more cores, well standardized instruction sets that unlock useful things (wide SIMD, float16, gather/scatter, ...). AMD is doing pretty well at this. What Intel is doing instead: put weak cores alongside decent cores, cripple the decent cores to keep up with the weak cores, release CPUs with the same amount of cores as before for many generations in a row, use the weak cores to make it sound like they have more cores than they have, bring out way too many variants of instructions sets to ever have a useful common set, drop support for their own promising sounding instructions I just really dislike anything Intel has come out with or plans to come out with lately :p My cycle of preference of manufacturer (for desktop computers) has been: 90s: Intel. Early 2000s: AMD (pentium 4 was so meh). late 2000's+2010s: Intel. Now: AMD again. What will Intel do to gain foothold again (that isn't sabotaging the other)? We need to keep the competition going, or the other side may get too comfortable.

pbsd 2y ago
A credible but unconfirmed rumor I've read is that Intel didn't want to do it because of the 512-bit shuffles. The E-cores (including those using the upcoming Skymont microarchitecture) are natively 128-bit and already double-pump AVX2, so to quad-pump AVX-512 would result in many-uops 512-bit shuffle instructions made out of 128-bit uops. This would render the shuffles unusable, because you'd unpredictably have them costing either 1 uop or cycle to taking 10-30 uops/cycles depending on which core you are on at the moment. A situation similar to PEXT/PDEP, which cost almost nothing on Intel and dozens of cycles on AMD until a couple generations ago. Why does Zen 4 not have this problem? First, they're only double-pumping instead of quad-pumping. Secondly, while most of their AVX-512 implementation is double-pumped, there seems to be a full-length shuffle unit in there.
- Aardwolf 2y ago
  Interesting stuff! If a shuffle is just crossed wires without any logic (as far as I know shuffle is a completely predetermined bit permutation), wouldn't it fit on the E-cores easily enough?
  - pbsd 2y ago
    AVX-512 allows arbitrary shuffles, e.g., shuffle the 64 bytes in zmm0 with indices from zmm1 into zmm2. Simple shuffles like unpacks etc aren't really an issue.
    - dzaima 2y ago
      Worse yet (for wiring complexity or required uops, anyway), AVX-512 also has shuffles with two data inputs, i.e. each of the 64 bytes of result can come from any of 128 different input bytes, selected by another 64-byte register.
      - Remnant44 2y ago
        Which is also why it's so attractive. :) Those large shuffles are really powerful for things like lookup tables. Large tables are suddenly way more feasible in-register, letting you replace a costly gather with an in-register permute.
IWeldMelons 2y ago
What they did, is actually even worse: they briefly introduced in Alder Lake AVX-512 FP16 = excellent turbo fast instructions for AI, to immediately drop it.

pbsd 2y ago

A credible but unconfirmed rumor I've read is that Intel didn't want to do it because of the 512-bit shuffles. The E-cores (including those using the upcoming Skymont microarchitecture) are natively 128-bit and already double-pump AVX2, so to quad-pump AVX-512 would result in many-uops 512-bit shuffle instructions made out of 128-bit uops. This would render the shuffles unusable, because you'd unpredictably have them costing either 1 uop or cycle to taking 10-30 uops/cycles depending on which core you are on at the moment. A situation similar to PEXT/PDEP, which cost almost nothing on Intel and dozens of cycles on AMD until a couple generations ago. Why does Zen 4 not have this problem? First, they're only double-pumping instead of quad-pumping. Secondly, while most of their AVX-512 implementation is double-pumped, there seems to be a full-length shuffle unit in there.

Aardwolf 2y ago
Interesting stuff! If a shuffle is just crossed wires without any logic (as far as I know shuffle is a completely predetermined bit permutation), wouldn't it fit on the E-cores easily enough?
- pbsd 2y ago
  AVX-512 allows arbitrary shuffles, e.g., shuffle the 64 bytes in zmm0 with indices from zmm1 into zmm2. Simple shuffles like unpacks etc aren't really an issue.
  - dzaima 2y ago
    Worse yet (for wiring complexity or required uops, anyway), AVX-512 also has shuffles with two data inputs, i.e. each of the 64 bytes of result can come from any of 128 different input bytes, selected by another 64-byte register.
    - Remnant44 2y ago
      Which is also why it's so attractive. :) Those large shuffles are really powerful for things like lookup tables. Large tables are suddenly way more feasible in-register, letting you replace a costly gather with an in-register permute.

IWeldMelons 2y ago

What they did, is actually even worse: they briefly introduced in Alder Lake AVX-512 FP16 = excellent turbo fast instructions for AI, to immediately drop it.