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I have traveled all around Europe by car and the autostrada del sole is an unmatched engineering marvel in the old continent. Italian geography is complex. The

I have traveled all around Europe by car and the autostrada del sole is an unmatched engineering marvel in the old continent. Italian geography is complex. There's a reason the allied forces took way longer from Naples to Milan than from Normandy to Berlin despite heavily outnumbering the Germans. I was always super proud of the quality and maintenance of Italian highways. Somewhere around the turn of the century I stopped feeling as proud because maintenance started lacking and other countries that I visited (eastern Europe) has also built some very good roads. One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. From Rome to Milan in a small car you're paying around 60€s in tolls. That's not a small price, especially as it is way higher than 15 day passes for all highways in some other central European countries.

thefz 2y ago
> One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. Had to privatize in 1999, because you know, capitalism == good for the consumer, good for the environment, good for all...
hankchinaski 2y ago
Depends. We just had a bridge collapse and kill 42 people with it. So it depends. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows
- epolanski 2y ago
  I did point out that from 20 years there seems not to be the same maintenance that we had. Anyway the ponte Morandi is not part of the autostrada del sole.
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  Are you referring to the bridge collapse in Genoa a few years back?
silcoon 2y ago
Yeah, the Italian highways were a high engineering project. Even the asphalt quality that still used today has the ability to absorb water pretty quickly and don’t leave dangerous patches of water on the road with heavy rains. The problem is that all the highway projects, despite being government financed, are now mostly in the hand of large private companies and rich families (Benetton) which made the price usage skyrocket. Traveling by car in Italy is now expensive for residents, and the alternative roads are slow and dangerous. In Switzerland the annual highway subscription is ~€40
- tomalbrc 2y ago
  Expensive as it should be
  - manuelmoreale 2y ago
    Care to explain why? Vast majority of highways in Italy are owned by the state. And we already pay taxes.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      They are owned by the state, but they are not managed by the state but Autostrade per L'Italia SPA.
      - manuelmoreale 2y ago
        Yes. And Holding Reti Autostradali S.p.A. owns the 88% of that SPA. And CDP S.p.A[0] owns 51% of that Holding. And the Ministry of Economy and Finance owns 83% of the CDP. So it's just a convoluted way to say that the state owns the majority of it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassa_Depositi_e_Prestiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassa_Depositi_e_Prestiti
- Woshiwuja 2y ago
  Highways are now public infrastructure again after buying them back from benetton. 8 billions euro. they got them for free. we just gifted 8 billion to one of the richest families. wow.
switch007 2y ago
> From Rome to Milan in a small car you're paying around 60€s in tolls. Woah. I mean at that price it's not even noteworthy that the road is excellent - you just expect it. It would be noteworthy if it was a bad road!
- birracerveza 2y ago
  >I mean at that price it's not even noteworthy that the road is excellent - you just expect it. ...if only the world was such a simple place...
pmontra 2y ago
You probably also pay that much for gas. It's about 650 km: 5 liters per 100 km at 120 km/h (a little less than the speed limit), it's a little more than 30 liters, which is about 60 Euro. If you travel alone train is probably cheaper and faster. If you travel with friends, car is cheaper but slower.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  That "car is slower than train" really only works when everybody happens to live near train station A and when the group of friends plans to take its vacation near train station B. By plane it can be even worse : time to go to the airport + buffer of one or two hours to not miss the plane + landing and waiting for luggage and then time to go from the airport to your destination. For our usual vacation, car takes 8 hours (950 kilometers) while plane takes 6h30... Still a win but then you're left with no car or having to rent a car: renting the car is another 30 minutes. So 7 hours vs 8 hours and you re stuck with a car inevitably (for me) shittier than yours. Train isn't even close to competing time wise in our case. But I have fond memories back when, as a kid, we d put the car on the train and then take the same train. I have nothing against rail and it s great it s developing in the EU. But on many cases it's simply not a time saver compared to car.
  - barrkel 2y ago
    The primary time-saver of a train is you can work on the train.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      Or even just read and relax instead of being tense for 6 hours, especially as Italy has some terrible drivers.
      - hulitu 2y ago
        > as Italy has some terrible drivers. Just like any country. IMHO drivers from Switzerland are more terrible than those from Italy.
silvanocerza 2y ago
From Rome North to Milan South you're paying ~45€. With 60€ you can go from Naples North to Milan South. That's a 200km difference. Source: https://www.autostrade.it/en/pedaggio https://www.autostrade.it/en/pedaggio
- epolanski 2y ago
  I didn't fact check the exact numbers but I trust what's there. But I know for sure there's something oddish with the calculator as I've spent around 80 euros in june between Monteporzio (south of Rome) to the Slovenian border whereas that calculator says I would've spent 51 euros.
yabones 2y ago
Speaking as a Canadian, that's not bad. Our toll bypass for Toronto is about $.50/km, so traveling from one end of the city to the other (~70km) costs about $40-50 depending on the time of day. So it's not great, but it could be a lot worse. A big part of it is that the 407 is highly privatized and owned by offshore corporations, pension funds, investors, etc. https://www.407etr.com/en/trip-calculator https://www.407etr.com/en/trip-calculator

thefz 2y ago

> One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. Had to privatize in 1999, because you know, capitalism == good for the consumer, good for the environment, good for all...

hankchinaski 2y ago

Depends. We just had a bridge collapse and kill 42 people with it. So it depends. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows

epolanski 2y ago
I did point out that from 20 years there seems not to be the same maintenance that we had. Anyway the ponte Morandi is not part of the autostrada del sole.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
Are you referring to the bridge collapse in Genoa a few years back?

silcoon 2y ago

Yeah, the Italian highways were a high engineering project. Even the asphalt quality that still used today has the ability to absorb water pretty quickly and don’t leave dangerous patches of water on the road with heavy rains. The problem is that all the highway projects, despite being government financed, are now mostly in the hand of large private companies and rich families (Benetton) which made the price usage skyrocket. Traveling by car in Italy is now expensive for residents, and the alternative roads are slow and dangerous. In Switzerland the annual highway subscription is ~€40

tomalbrc 2y ago
Expensive as it should be
- manuelmoreale 2y ago
  Care to explain why? Vast majority of highways in Italy are owned by the state. And we already pay taxes.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    They are owned by the state, but they are not managed by the state but Autostrade per L'Italia SPA.
    - manuelmoreale 2y ago
      Yes. And Holding Reti Autostradali S.p.A. owns the 88% of that SPA. And CDP S.p.A[0] owns 51% of that Holding. And the Ministry of Economy and Finance owns 83% of the CDP. So it's just a convoluted way to say that the state owns the majority of it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassa_Depositi_e_Prestiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassa_Depositi_e_Prestiti
Woshiwuja 2y ago
Highways are now public infrastructure again after buying them back from benetton. 8 billions euro. they got them for free. we just gifted 8 billion to one of the richest families. wow.

switch007 2y ago

> From Rome to Milan in a small car you're paying around 60€s in tolls. Woah. I mean at that price it's not even noteworthy that the road is excellent - you just expect it. It would be noteworthy if it was a bad road!

birracerveza 2y ago
>I mean at that price it's not even noteworthy that the road is excellent - you just expect it. ...if only the world was such a simple place...

pmontra 2y ago

You probably also pay that much for gas. It's about 650 km: 5 liters per 100 km at 120 km/h (a little less than the speed limit), it's a little more than 30 liters, which is about 60 Euro. If you travel alone train is probably cheaper and faster. If you travel with friends, car is cheaper but slower.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
That "car is slower than train" really only works when everybody happens to live near train station A and when the group of friends plans to take its vacation near train station B. By plane it can be even worse : time to go to the airport + buffer of one or two hours to not miss the plane + landing and waiting for luggage and then time to go from the airport to your destination. For our usual vacation, car takes 8 hours (950 kilometers) while plane takes 6h30... Still a win but then you're left with no car or having to rent a car: renting the car is another 30 minutes. So 7 hours vs 8 hours and you re stuck with a car inevitably (for me) shittier than yours. Train isn't even close to competing time wise in our case. But I have fond memories back when, as a kid, we d put the car on the train and then take the same train. I have nothing against rail and it s great it s developing in the EU. But on many cases it's simply not a time saver compared to car.
- barrkel 2y ago
  The primary time-saver of a train is you can work on the train.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    Or even just read and relax instead of being tense for 6 hours, especially as Italy has some terrible drivers.
    - hulitu 2y ago
      > as Italy has some terrible drivers. Just like any country. IMHO drivers from Switzerland are more terrible than those from Italy.

silvanocerza 2y ago

From Rome North to Milan South you're paying ~45€. With 60€ you can go from Naples North to Milan South. That's a 200km difference. Source: https://www.autostrade.it/en/pedaggio https://www.autostrade.it/en/pedaggio

epolanski 2y ago
I didn't fact check the exact numbers but I trust what's there. But I know for sure there's something oddish with the calculator as I've spent around 80 euros in june between Monteporzio (south of Rome) to the Slovenian border whereas that calculator says I would've spent 51 euros.

yabones 2y ago

Speaking as a Canadian, that's not bad. Our toll bypass for Toronto is about $.50/km, so traveling from one end of the city to the other (~70km) costs about $40-50 depending on the time of day. So it's not great, but it could be a lot worse. A big part of it is that the 407 is highly privatized and owned by offshore corporations, pension funds, investors, etc. https://www.407etr.com/en/trip-calculator https://www.407etr.com/en/trip-calculator