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The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance, but at this point in history I don't even

by advael 2y ago

The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance, but at this point in history I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone, nor that the people doing the most harm ever see a jail cell There's a whole body of complicated philosophy about what criminal law should do, whether it's about avenging victims or rehabilitating offenders or deterrance or profit motive, but I don't think we even need to get into that because a fundamental assumption even having that conversation requires is that the things the state locks people up for are legitimate and this is at this point the exception for me rather than the rule

samatman 2y ago
> I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone Would evidence change your belief? > Violent offenses account for over 3 in 5 people (62%) in state prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
- diob 2y ago
  I'm not defending OP or trying to argue, but I do want to add some info here. That number is only for state prisons, it's not the entire prison population. Here is a good page that has lots of info on the populations: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html And a pie chart showing the difference in population between all the various types: https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp It's basically around half the total.
  - samatman 2y ago
    That's a good contribution to the discussion, thanks. I didn't intend it as a complete statement. But it should be added that violent offenders are not the only category which harmed someone. Stealing from people harms them. Others might want to carve out shoplifting from this, but not me: for one thing, many stores are owned by identifiable human beings, and stealing from that store is stealing directly from them. For big chains or whatever, diffuse harm is still harm. On a personal level I care less about the latter, but this is not a distinction which should be enshrined into law. Theft is wrong. By any sane breakdown, the large majority of people imprisoned or jailed are there directly due to harming other people. I lean towards policy which will minimize the amount of offenses which don't directly harm other people, personally. What crimes you feel fall into that category differs from person to person, though. But the fact remains that pointing guns at people, stabbing them, stealing their car, breaking into their house, raping them: these harm the victims, directly, and those sorts of offenses are, in fact, the majority for which prisoners are imprisoned or jailed.
    - 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
      It doesn't really matter. Whether it's 51% or 99% of people "doing harm", there's still a percentage of people in jail for such things as: - copyright violation - jaywalking - possessing marijuana - peeing outside within 100 yards of a minor - a 17 and 18 year old in a committed relationship having consensual sex - "obscenity" - [medically necessary] abortion [of a pregnancy due to rape from a family member] - being gay in the military Let me remind you (& everyone) that this is not normal outside of our very fucked up country. We lock up so many more people that the next 3 biggest countries combined still don't lock up as much as we do. We have an incarceration problem. So, ignore those, and focus on the violent crimes again. Why do we have so many more violent criminals than anyone else? Do we still think this is just totally normal, and we can't do anything about it, so fuck it, lock them up and throw away the key? If we were talking about any other metric of a healthy population (child death rate, inability to get food or housing, infectious disease rate, etc) we would be actually working to change these numbers rather than just building more places to stick the people we don't want to think about. Maybe the fact that there are so many violent crimes is a good enough reason for us to start rethinking our policies, what makes our fucked up citizens act this way, and how we can begin to turn the tide. Or we can give into apathy and say, fuck it.
      - diob 2y ago
        Don't forget that being homeless is now illegal :(
drewcoo 2y ago
> The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance "Criminal" is not about harm by the convict but about successful prosecution.

by advael 2y ago

samatman 2y ago

> I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone Would evidence change your belief? > Violent offenses account for over 3 in 5 people (62%) in state prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

diob 2y ago
I'm not defending OP or trying to argue, but I do want to add some info here. That number is only for state prisons, it's not the entire prison population. Here is a good page that has lots of info on the populations: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html And a pie chart showing the difference in population between all the various types: https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp It's basically around half the total.
- samatman 2y ago
  That's a good contribution to the discussion, thanks. I didn't intend it as a complete statement. But it should be added that violent offenders are not the only category which harmed someone. Stealing from people harms them. Others might want to carve out shoplifting from this, but not me: for one thing, many stores are owned by identifiable human beings, and stealing from that store is stealing directly from them. For big chains or whatever, diffuse harm is still harm. On a personal level I care less about the latter, but this is not a distinction which should be enshrined into law. Theft is wrong. By any sane breakdown, the large majority of people imprisoned or jailed are there directly due to harming other people. I lean towards policy which will minimize the amount of offenses which don't directly harm other people, personally. What crimes you feel fall into that category differs from person to person, though. But the fact remains that pointing guns at people, stabbing them, stealing their car, breaking into their house, raping them: these harm the victims, directly, and those sorts of offenses are, in fact, the majority for which prisoners are imprisoned or jailed.
  - 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
    It doesn't really matter. Whether it's 51% or 99% of people "doing harm", there's still a percentage of people in jail for such things as: - copyright violation - jaywalking - possessing marijuana - peeing outside within 100 yards of a minor - a 17 and 18 year old in a committed relationship having consensual sex - "obscenity" - [medically necessary] abortion [of a pregnancy due to rape from a family member] - being gay in the military Let me remind you (& everyone) that this is not normal outside of our very fucked up country. We lock up so many more people that the next 3 biggest countries combined still don't lock up as much as we do. We have an incarceration problem. So, ignore those, and focus on the violent crimes again. Why do we have so many more violent criminals than anyone else? Do we still think this is just totally normal, and we can't do anything about it, so fuck it, lock them up and throw away the key? If we were talking about any other metric of a healthy population (child death rate, inability to get food or housing, infectious disease rate, etc) we would be actually working to change these numbers rather than just building more places to stick the people we don't want to think about. Maybe the fact that there are so many violent crimes is a good enough reason for us to start rethinking our policies, what makes our fucked up citizens act this way, and how we can begin to turn the tide. Or we can give into apathy and say, fuck it.
    - diob 2y ago
      Don't forget that being homeless is now illegal :(

drewcoo 2y ago

> The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance "Criminal" is not about harm by the convict but about successful prosecution.