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I have children, and it’s always more work for me to give them consequences for bad behavior than to let it slide. The examples given in the article for why pri

I have children, and it’s always more work for me to give them consequences for bad behavior than to let it slide. The examples given in the article for why prisoners are put on the nutraloaf program seem pretty reasonable, especially if it’s effective at curbing recidivism.

aaomidi 2y ago
Genuinely amazing that people can see grown adults in the custody of the state and compare them to their own kids. I don’t know if that’s talking about how folks treat their kids vs how they see prisoners.
- jerkstate 2y ago
  I see prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world, what ways are ok to treat others versus what isn’t ok. That’s the similarity I was trying to draw with children. “You can’t hit people even if you’re frustrated” is a lesson in common, for example.
  - aaomidi 2y ago
    What about giving misbehaving kids Nutraloaf? And: > prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world People selling and using drugs (non violent, for example) are people who haven’t learned how to act appropriately? People in prison for dodging military service and drafts? People in prison for having to steal for feeding their family? These are the vast majority of people in prisons around the world. These first category being the majority of prisoners in America.
    - jerkstate 2y ago
      From the article: > Or just get yourself tossed into Cook County Jail, where an inmate who causes serious food-related problems buys himself a one-way ticket to Nutraloafopolis. Get caught making homemade hooch in your cell toilet? You get Nutraloaf. Hurl food at a guard or stab someone with a spork? Nutraloaf. The article calls out that people who are fed Nutraloaf in prison have committed additional offenses. Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair?
      - addaon 2y ago
        > Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair? There are many different levels of feeling that something is “unfair,” but in the limit of being incarcerated with no crime, it’s indistinguishable by the incarcerated individual from kidnapping by a large, organized gang. Are you advocating that self defense against kidnappers is inappropriate?
      - inhumantsar 2y ago
        while I don't really agree with op, you're stretching things here quite a bit. a) it's a county jail, not state or federal prison. the people there wouldn't be hardened criminals there for extended stays. they'd mostly be, afaik, petty criminals and people waiting for trial dates. I suspect the spork stabbings aren't attempts at murder, particularly against prison guards (esp. considering the article says "stab someone" vs "hurl food at a prison guard"). b) the article, the part you quoted in fact, specifically calls out food-related problems, not "additional offenses". making prison wine and throwing food could probably be laboured into offenses if someone with power was vindictive enough, but those are really basic administrative issues and this nutraloaf is an administrative response.
        aaomidi 2y ago
        Okay but are you going to give your children nutraloaf if they’re misbehaving?
        skeledrew 2y ago
        I don't see why not, once they understand the reason.
    - causality0 2y ago
      Yes, they are. That what is appropriate is not the same as what is fair and just is not relevant to the question of whether prisoners are people who have not learned to behave appropriately.
    - wk_end 2y ago
      People selling and using drugs aren’t the “majority of prisoners in America.” It’s about 1/5: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2023_drugs.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2023_drugs.html
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  There is only a slight correlation between being a grown adult and not being a child.
- ethagknight 2y ago
  Is it really amazing? I mean, it’s the definition of custody.
KingMob 2y ago
> especially if it’s effective at curbing recidivism. There's nothing in the article examining its effect on recidivism. It's probably no more effective at that than jail in general, which is to say, there are much more effective interventions.
- jerkstate 2y ago
  > Both men, and virtually every other Nutraloafer, straightened up enough to get back to the usual diet of oatmeal and processed bologna.
  - oskapt 2y ago
    That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release. This is a punishment for bad behavior while inside the jail. It’s a method of behavioral control in real time. I doubt that anyone who gets out of jail is using the argument of, “maybe I’ll have to eat Nutraloaf if I go back to jail” as a factor in choosing to commit or not commit further crimes.
    - jerkstate 2y ago
      it's a small point and maybe a different word would have been more clear (because I agree, recidivism commonly refers to committing crimes again after being released from jail), but none of the definitions I found for recidivism were specific to release from jail - the definition seems to be committing offenses again after some type of intervention. in the case of the nutraloaf, you're already in jail and you commit some additional offense (say, starting a food fight). the article seemed to indicate that in most cases, the offender avoided doing the sorts of things that could get them back on nutraloaf - in my opinion, that meets the definition of recidivism.
    - fsckboy 2y ago
      >That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release. you raise an interesting point, and I did a bit of a dive into various dictionaries, new and old: chances of re-incarceration after release is an important aspect of criminology and public policy, but it's not built into the word recidivism. recidivism is "backsliding", so it's more a case of "draw a line or a gradient, then measure recidivism across that line or gradient" in the context of prisoners, it's probably a good idea to be clear about the sense of the definition chosen.

aaomidi 2y ago

Genuinely amazing that people can see grown adults in the custody of the state and compare them to their own kids. I don’t know if that’s talking about how folks treat their kids vs how they see prisoners.

jerkstate 2y ago
I see prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world, what ways are ok to treat others versus what isn’t ok. That’s the similarity I was trying to draw with children. “You can’t hit people even if you’re frustrated” is a lesson in common, for example.
- aaomidi 2y ago
  What about giving misbehaving kids Nutraloaf? And: > prisoners as people who haven’t yet learned how to act appropriately in the world People selling and using drugs (non violent, for example) are people who haven’t learned how to act appropriately? People in prison for dodging military service and drafts? People in prison for having to steal for feeding their family? These are the vast majority of people in prisons around the world. These first category being the majority of prisoners in America.
  - jerkstate 2y ago
    From the article: > Or just get yourself tossed into Cook County Jail, where an inmate who causes serious food-related problems buys himself a one-way ticket to Nutraloafopolis. Get caught making homemade hooch in your cell toilet? You get Nutraloaf. Hurl food at a guard or stab someone with a spork? Nutraloaf. The article calls out that people who are fed Nutraloaf in prison have committed additional offenses. Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair?
    - addaon 2y ago
      > Are you advocating that it’s ok to stab a prison guard if you feel that your incarceration was unfair? There are many different levels of feeling that something is “unfair,” but in the limit of being incarcerated with no crime, it’s indistinguishable by the incarcerated individual from kidnapping by a large, organized gang. Are you advocating that self defense against kidnappers is inappropriate?
    - inhumantsar 2y ago
      while I don't really agree with op, you're stretching things here quite a bit. a) it's a county jail, not state or federal prison. the people there wouldn't be hardened criminals there for extended stays. they'd mostly be, afaik, petty criminals and people waiting for trial dates. I suspect the spork stabbings aren't attempts at murder, particularly against prison guards (esp. considering the article says "stab someone" vs "hurl food at a prison guard"). b) the article, the part you quoted in fact, specifically calls out food-related problems, not "additional offenses". making prison wine and throwing food could probably be laboured into offenses if someone with power was vindictive enough, but those are really basic administrative issues and this nutraloaf is an administrative response.
      - aaomidi 2y ago
        Okay but are you going to give your children nutraloaf if they’re misbehaving?
        skeledrew 2y ago
        I don't see why not, once they understand the reason.
  - causality0 2y ago
    Yes, they are. That what is appropriate is not the same as what is fair and just is not relevant to the question of whether prisoners are people who have not learned to behave appropriately.
  - wk_end 2y ago
    People selling and using drugs aren’t the “majority of prisoners in America.” It’s about 1/5: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2023_drugs.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2023_drugs.html
hamandcheese 2y ago
There is only a slight correlation between being a grown adult and not being a child.
ethagknight 2y ago
Is it really amazing? I mean, it’s the definition of custody.

KingMob 2y ago

> especially if it’s effective at curbing recidivism. There's nothing in the article examining its effect on recidivism. It's probably no more effective at that than jail in general, which is to say, there are much more effective interventions.

jerkstate 2y ago
> Both men, and virtually every other Nutraloafer, straightened up enough to get back to the usual diet of oatmeal and processed bologna.
- oskapt 2y ago
  That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release. This is a punishment for bad behavior while inside the jail. It’s a method of behavioral control in real time. I doubt that anyone who gets out of jail is using the argument of, “maybe I’ll have to eat Nutraloaf if I go back to jail” as a factor in choosing to commit or not commit further crimes.
  - jerkstate 2y ago
    it's a small point and maybe a different word would have been more clear (because I agree, recidivism commonly refers to committing crimes again after being released from jail), but none of the definitions I found for recidivism were specific to release from jail - the definition seems to be committing offenses again after some type of intervention. in the case of the nutraloaf, you're already in jail and you commit some additional offense (say, starting a food fight). the article seemed to indicate that in most cases, the offender avoided doing the sorts of things that could get them back on nutraloaf - in my opinion, that meets the definition of recidivism.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    >That’s not recidivism, which is the return to committing crimes after release. you raise an interesting point, and I did a bit of a dive into various dictionaries, new and old: chances of re-incarceration after release is an important aspect of criminology and public policy, but it's not built into the word recidivism. recidivism is "backsliding", so it's more a case of "draw a line or a gradient, then measure recidivism across that line or gradient" in the context of prisoners, it's probably a good idea to be clear about the sense of the definition chosen.