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It's a nice idea, in that the punishment isn't pain, it's the removal of joy. But the whole idea of disciplinary punishment is whack. It's treating the symptom

It's a nice idea, in that the punishment isn't pain, it's the removal of joy. But the whole idea of disciplinary punishment is whack. It's treating the symptom rather than the cause. They're not stabbing people with sporks for no reason. They're having a conflict, and stabbing is the last resort to resolve the conflict. Nobody wants to accept the fact that prisoners are in fact human beings, motivated by the same things every human being is motivated by. If you address those motivations, instead of just waiting for something bad to happen and reacting to it, you'll have less bad things happen. But that'll never change as long as prisons are a profit-making enterprise, and our system of justice and reform is just a punitive treadmill. (as an aside: bland food won't work well on someone who lost their sense of smell from long covid, and prison populations were heavily affected)

b112 2y ago
Where I come from, there are detention centers, and rehabilitation centers. In a detention center, you get a spoon to eat with, rehabilitation, a knife and fork. Other living conditions are inline with that. You seem to think all humans are the same, well adjusted, able to readily and happily change to live with others, and so on. The truth is, many people in jail are indeed stabbing others in jail for "no reason", as in "no reason most would consider valid". There are indeed issues with the US prison system, or so I've read, but I assure you that inmates in prisons are known, world wide, to get stabby without cause. Here's a primary example...You know you can punch someone in the head instead of stabbing, yes? This continues down to "talking instead of physical violence", but by saying stabbing is the result of poor conditions, you're saying stabbing is the sensible result of any lack of joy.
advael 2y ago
The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance, but at this point in history I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone, nor that the people doing the most harm ever see a jail cell There's a whole body of complicated philosophy about what criminal law should do, whether it's about avenging victims or rehabilitating offenders or deterrance or profit motive, but I don't think we even need to get into that because a fundamental assumption even having that conversation requires is that the things the state locks people up for are legitimate and this is at this point the exception for me rather than the rule
- samatman 2y ago
  > I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone Would evidence change your belief? > Violent offenses account for over 3 in 5 people (62%) in state prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
  - diob 2y ago
    I'm not defending OP or trying to argue, but I do want to add some info here. That number is only for state prisons, it's not the entire prison population. Here is a good page that has lots of info on the populations: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html And a pie chart showing the difference in population between all the various types: https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp It's basically around half the total.
    - samatman 2y ago
      That's a good contribution to the discussion, thanks. I didn't intend it as a complete statement. But it should be added that violent offenders are not the only category which harmed someone. Stealing from people harms them. Others might want to carve out shoplifting from this, but not me: for one thing, many stores are owned by identifiable human beings, and stealing from that store is stealing directly from them. For big chains or whatever, diffuse harm is still harm. On a personal level I care less about the latter, but this is not a distinction which should be enshrined into law. Theft is wrong. By any sane breakdown, the large majority of people imprisoned or jailed are there directly due to harming other people. I lean towards policy which will minimize the amount of offenses which don't directly harm other people, personally. What crimes you feel fall into that category differs from person to person, though. But the fact remains that pointing guns at people, stabbing them, stealing their car, breaking into their house, raping them: these harm the victims, directly, and those sorts of offenses are, in fact, the majority for which prisoners are imprisoned or jailed.
gharman 2y ago
> (as an aside: bland food won't work well on someone who lost their sense of smell from long covid, and prison populations were heavily affected) The consistent texture of the Nutraloaf may “help” here. My spouse lost her sense of smell (for other reasons than Covid) years ago and now relies heavily on textures for food enjoyment.
poes-law 2y ago
[flagged]

b112 2y ago

Where I come from, there are detention centers, and rehabilitation centers. In a detention center, you get a spoon to eat with, rehabilitation, a knife and fork. Other living conditions are inline with that. You seem to think all humans are the same, well adjusted, able to readily and happily change to live with others, and so on. The truth is, many people in jail are indeed stabbing others in jail for "no reason", as in "no reason most would consider valid". There are indeed issues with the US prison system, or so I've read, but I assure you that inmates in prisons are known, world wide, to get stabby without cause. Here's a primary example...You know you can punch someone in the head instead of stabbing, yes? This continues down to "talking instead of physical violence", but by saying stabbing is the result of poor conditions, you're saying stabbing is the sensible result of any lack of joy.

advael 2y ago

The word "criminal" has always been an overbroad term that conflates several different levels of harm without nuance, but at this point in history I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone, nor that the people doing the most harm ever see a jail cell There's a whole body of complicated philosophy about what criminal law should do, whether it's about avenging victims or rehabilitating offenders or deterrance or profit motive, but I don't think we even need to get into that because a fundamental assumption even having that conversation requires is that the things the state locks people up for are legitimate and this is at this point the exception for me rather than the rule

samatman 2y ago
> I don't even believe that the majority of people incarcerated are there from doing harm to someone Would evidence change your belief? > Violent offenses account for over 3 in 5 people (62%) in state prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
- diob 2y ago
  I'm not defending OP or trying to argue, but I do want to add some info here. That number is only for state prisons, it's not the entire prison population. Here is a good page that has lots of info on the populations: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html And a pie chart showing the difference in population between all the various types: https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2024-2X.webp It's basically around half the total.
  - samatman 2y ago
    That's a good contribution to the discussion, thanks. I didn't intend it as a complete statement. But it should be added that violent offenders are not the only category which harmed someone. Stealing from people harms them. Others might want to carve out shoplifting from this, but not me: for one thing, many stores are owned by identifiable human beings, and stealing from that store is stealing directly from them. For big chains or whatever, diffuse harm is still harm. On a personal level I care less about the latter, but this is not a distinction which should be enshrined into law. Theft is wrong. By any sane breakdown, the large majority of people imprisoned or jailed are there directly due to harming other people. I lean towards policy which will minimize the amount of offenses which don't directly harm other people, personally. What crimes you feel fall into that category differs from person to person, though. But the fact remains that pointing guns at people, stabbing them, stealing their car, breaking into their house, raping them: these harm the victims, directly, and those sorts of offenses are, in fact, the majority for which prisoners are imprisoned or jailed.

gharman 2y ago

> (as an aside: bland food won't work well on someone who lost their sense of smell from long covid, and prison populations were heavily affected) The consistent texture of the Nutraloaf may “help” here. My spouse lost her sense of smell (for other reasons than Covid) years ago and now relies heavily on textures for food enjoyment.

poes-law 2y ago

[flagged]