9 ms·

Italy's Sun Motorway (2021)

kkfx 2y ago
As a Ligurian, it was not so exceptional, surely, back then and still today passing though so many mountains and valleys keeping the road as straight and leveled as possible was remarkable in engineering terms BUT they have created a monster because back then it was a new road, so normal traffic goes through other roads, and start to took the new shiny fast one once done. Unfortunately NO ONE have planned how to re-create it because back than the idea was that the concrete it's like a natural rock, nearly eternal, so there was no plan on how to rebuild any bridge or tube when it will be needed. Meanwhile old roads essentially a re-paved ancient Roman Via Aurelia, was not much developed, still traversing ANY single Ligurian dwelling, so it's definitively unable to sustain today traffic even for short segment to re-made a single bridge or tube at a time. Here and there some new segments are built and once done traffic got diverted on the new segment, but the overall aging infrastructure is in a terrible shape and while some new segments advance there is still no complete plan because in many segments there is simply no solution so far to build something new due to excess buildings around, not adapt orography and so on. That's not an isolated case, essentially all other the world all infra are made without any idea about what to do after their expectable service life BUT the Italian issue is also due to the fast construction: if you build something SLOWLY some parts of a big infra will need to be rebuild at a certain point in future, while the others are still operational, so you can upgrade them at an equally slow speed. If you develop all at once as quick as possible well, it will reach the end of life all at once as well. So an original remarkable effort demand another one, than another one more etc and no one can foresee the economical, political, condition when the infra end of life will be reached. In general MOST post-WWI infra and buildings are now at end of life, all together, since they was built quickly all together and as any quick thing was badly built, with mass speculation, no intention to even trying imaging the future and so on. We now know in many fields that creating megaprojects might be exiting but way to often the outcome is TERRIBLE, so it's better build much little things instead of few big. A lesson learnt by many, but still to be learned by many others.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
reddalo 2y ago
The Sun Motorway between Bologna and Florence is double, as the article says: there is the original road (now called "panoramica") and the new super-direct ("direttissima", also called Variante di Valico). The old road is still interesting to see, even though it's in worse conditions and it takes a longer time to cross. Give it a try on your next Italian road trip!
- zeitg3ist 2y ago
  One thing to note is that the panoramica usually has very little traffic and zero trucks, so while it might take a bit more time it's usually a less stressful experience.
  - ccozan 2y ago
    We took direction south the panoramic version and returning the direct and slightly faster. We really enjoy the panoramic. The views are sometimes breathtaking.
airstrike 2y ago
Never knew it was a thing until a couple of summers ago our train from Florence to Como was delayed by like 3 hours, so we canceled the tickets, rented a nice little black Fiat 500 and drove. I was enjoying the sights all the way through as is tradition in Italy (and the old continent in general), but if I recall correctly there was a point on the road where we could choose to take the "Panoramica" route and wow, did it pay off. I will forever treasure that little unplanned experience.
- pmontra 2y ago
  The Panoramica is the original route, the one in the article and in some of the pictures. There is new more direct one now, with more tunnels and less bridges. It's faster but of course it's less scenic.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
epolanski 2y ago
I have traveled all around Europe by car and the autostrada del sole is an unmatched engineering marvel in the old continent. Italian geography is complex. There's a reason the allied forces took way longer from Naples to Milan than from Normandy to Berlin despite heavily outnumbering the Germans. I was always super proud of the quality and maintenance of Italian highways. Somewhere around the turn of the century I stopped feeling as proud because maintenance started lacking and other countries that I visited (eastern Europe) has also built some very good roads. One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. From Rome to Milan in a small car you're paying around 60€s in tolls. That's not a small price, especially as it is way higher than 15 day passes for all highways in some other central European countries.
- thefz 2y ago
  > One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. Had to privatize in 1999, because you know, capitalism == good for the consumer, good for the environment, good for all...
- hankchinaski 2y ago
  Depends. We just had a bridge collapse and kill 42 people with it. So it depends. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows
  - epolanski 2y ago
    I did point out that from 20 years there seems not to be the same maintenance that we had. Anyway the ponte Morandi is not part of the autostrada del sole.
  - UncleOxidant 2y ago
    Are you referring to the bridge collapse in Genoa a few years back?
- silcoon 2y ago
  Yeah, the Italian highways were a high engineering project. Even the asphalt quality that still used today has the ability to absorb water pretty quickly and don’t leave dangerous patches of water on the road with heavy rains. The problem is that all the highway projects, despite being government financed, are now mostly in the hand of large private companies and rich families (Benetton) which made the price usage skyrocket. Traveling by car in Italy is now expensive for residents, and the alternative roads are slow and dangerous. In Switzerland the annual highway subscription is ~€40
fosk 2y ago
On a tangential note, Italian food on the Italian highways at the “Autogrill” chain (gas stations and food joints along the route) is better than 90% of “Italian” restaurants in the USA.
- systemtest 2y ago
  Is there a variant of Godwin's law where an internet discussion always lead to people criticising the USA, regardless of subject?
  - sph 2y ago
    No, it's not about criticising, but turning every post into a discussion about the US. There's a lot of Americans in this place, and they don't know much about the rest of the world, so they filter everything through their experience. "La culture, c'est comme la confiture. Moins on on a, plus on l'étale" — Knowledge is like jam, the least you have, the more you spread it.
    - returningfory2 2y ago
      {Latin Americans, Europeans, Africans, etc...} don't know much about the rest of the world, either. But it seems that only people from the United States are criticized on this website for not knowing a whole lot about how things go in different continents.
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    The cliché at hand is more about the quality of Italian food in Italy than about any cuisine in the USA. Food-wise, the US is actually doing pretty well among Western countries. I'm not going to name the countries at the bottom of the list to be respectful, but they mostly don't dispute it.
  - AndrewOMartin 2y ago
    If you want, coin the name. The fact is that the probability of any topic being mentioned in a discussion approaches one as the length of the discussion approaches infinity. It should have been called Godwin's Tautology. :)
PaywallBuster 2y ago
https://archive.is/z79rC https://archive.is/z79rC
Double_a_92 2y ago
I almost thought Italy wasted money on solar freaking roadways...
RCitronsBroker 2y ago
France has a "autoroute du soleil", too. suffered through many traffic jams in various AC-less shitboxes on my way to go skydiving in northern Spain. Fun times.
easyThrowaway 2y ago
I wish I had the same experience. All my memories of the Italian highways are from being stuck for hours on the Salerno-Reggio on what at the time looked like thousands kms of unpaved and closed roads.
- davidelettieri 2y ago
  I've been driving from Rome to Calabria for several years now and I think the Salerno-Reggio Calabria has vastly improved while still being without tolls. I would just say that it's missing some gas station and services but the road is good.
Lucasoato 2y ago
Ah, back in the days we were still building public infrastructure. Nowadays everything’s ruined and Mafia is eating up a lot of public spending. Just check the crazy idea of the Messina strait bridge… billions that will be eaten by the clans, instead of maintaining and improving what we already have.
2dvisio 2y ago
For those interested in the relationship between humans, their supporting infrastructure (not just highways, but also the cities and everything around those), and nature specifically from a perspective of the Autostrada del Mediterraneo: I can suggest this book: www.store.rubbettinoeditore.it/catalogo/presente-infinito/ which tries (just visually through photos) to demonstrate that complicated and precarious relationship.
oriettaxx 2y ago
in the year Italy started that "exceptional" project many students in the South had still basic schools in almost open air: that "highway" was the result of a big lobby work by FIAT that wanted all Italians to have a car (their, FIAT, car), and it was something not really needed: oh, yes, it was a bit like the new deal in the US: big infrastructure to have jobs, in a typical Italian contest, a big favour to the Agnelli's family (owner of FIAT and rich industries before, during, and after the war). Fiat also lobby to remove public buses (filobus, tramway, electrical.. already in place in those years) from main cities: this, of course, to push for cars: not in Torino, their headquarter, but in many many big cities. To me that motorway is pretty much a sad opera, as sad as all investments made in Dodecanese when Italy took it (for free, without a single serious gunshot) from the Ottomans: there, too, some avveniristic operas.... sea planes bases, big restoration (the walls of Rodos... with a pretty 'exotic' taste, which I like a lot even if is considered a clear example on how not to restore antic city walls :), and of course planty of roads (pretty well done, sure) to serve well in case of military purpose: this in the '20ies when, once again, schools where even more misarable then the 50ies.

kkfx 2y ago

As a Ligurian, it was not so exceptional, surely, back then and still today passing though so many mountains and valleys keeping the road as straight and leveled as possible was remarkable in engineering terms BUT they have created a monster because back then it was a new road, so normal traffic goes through other roads, and start to took the new shiny fast one once done. Unfortunately NO ONE have planned how to re-create it because back than the idea was that the concrete it's like a natural rock, nearly eternal, so there was no plan on how to rebuild any bridge or tube when it will be needed. Meanwhile old roads essentially a re-paved ancient Roman Via Aurelia, was not much developed, still traversing ANY single Ligurian dwelling, so it's definitively unable to sustain today traffic even for short segment to re-made a single bridge or tube at a time. Here and there some new segments are built and once done traffic got diverted on the new segment, but the overall aging infrastructure is in a terrible shape and while some new segments advance there is still no complete plan because in many segments there is simply no solution so far to build something new due to excess buildings around, not adapt orography and so on. That's not an isolated case, essentially all other the world all infra are made without any idea about what to do after their expectable service life BUT the Italian issue is also due to the fast construction: if you build something SLOWLY some parts of a big infra will need to be rebuild at a certain point in future, while the others are still operational, so you can upgrade them at an equally slow speed. If you develop all at once as quick as possible well, it will reach the end of life all at once as well. So an original remarkable effort demand another one, than another one more etc and no one can foresee the economical, political, condition when the infra end of life will be reached. In general MOST post-WWI infra and buildings are now at end of life, all together, since they was built quickly all together and as any quick thing was badly built, with mass speculation, no intention to even trying imaging the future and so on. We now know in many fields that creating megaprojects might be exiting but way to often the outcome is TERRIBLE, so it's better build much little things instead of few big. A lesson learnt by many, but still to be learned by many others.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

reddalo 2y ago

The Sun Motorway between Bologna and Florence is double, as the article says: there is the original road (now called "panoramica") and the new super-direct ("direttissima", also called Variante di Valico). The old road is still interesting to see, even though it's in worse conditions and it takes a longer time to cross. Give it a try on your next Italian road trip!

zeitg3ist 2y ago
One thing to note is that the panoramica usually has very little traffic and zero trucks, so while it might take a bit more time it's usually a less stressful experience.
- ccozan 2y ago
  We took direction south the panoramic version and returning the direct and slightly faster. We really enjoy the panoramic. The views are sometimes breathtaking.

airstrike 2y ago

Never knew it was a thing until a couple of summers ago our train from Florence to Como was delayed by like 3 hours, so we canceled the tickets, rented a nice little black Fiat 500 and drove. I was enjoying the sights all the way through as is tradition in Italy (and the old continent in general), but if I recall correctly there was a point on the road where we could choose to take the "Panoramica" route and wow, did it pay off. I will forever treasure that little unplanned experience.

pmontra 2y ago
The Panoramica is the original route, the one in the article and in some of the pictures. There is new more direct one now, with more tunnels and less bridges. It's faster but of course it's less scenic.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

epolanski 2y ago

I have traveled all around Europe by car and the autostrada del sole is an unmatched engineering marvel in the old continent. Italian geography is complex. There's a reason the allied forces took way longer from Naples to Milan than from Normandy to Berlin despite heavily outnumbering the Germans. I was always super proud of the quality and maintenance of Italian highways. Somewhere around the turn of the century I stopped feeling as proud because maintenance started lacking and other countries that I visited (eastern Europe) has also built some very good roads. One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. From Rome to Milan in a small car you're paying around 60€s in tolls. That's not a small price, especially as it is way higher than 15 day passes for all highways in some other central European countries.

thefz 2y ago
> One thing to notice though is that the highways are expensive. Had to privatize in 1999, because you know, capitalism == good for the consumer, good for the environment, good for all...
hankchinaski 2y ago
Depends. We just had a bridge collapse and kill 42 people with it. So it depends. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows
- epolanski 2y ago
  I did point out that from 20 years there seems not to be the same maintenance that we had. Anyway the ponte Morandi is not part of the autostrada del sole.
- UncleOxidant 2y ago
  Are you referring to the bridge collapse in Genoa a few years back?
silcoon 2y ago
Yeah, the Italian highways were a high engineering project. Even the asphalt quality that still used today has the ability to absorb water pretty quickly and don’t leave dangerous patches of water on the road with heavy rains. The problem is that all the highway projects, despite being government financed, are now mostly in the hand of large private companies and rich families (Benetton) which made the price usage skyrocket. Traveling by car in Italy is now expensive for residents, and the alternative roads are slow and dangerous. In Switzerland the annual highway subscription is ~€40

fosk 2y ago

On a tangential note, Italian food on the Italian highways at the “Autogrill” chain (gas stations and food joints along the route) is better than 90% of “Italian” restaurants in the USA.

systemtest 2y ago
Is there a variant of Godwin's law where an internet discussion always lead to people criticising the USA, regardless of subject?
- sph 2y ago
  No, it's not about criticising, but turning every post into a discussion about the US. There's a lot of Americans in this place, and they don't know much about the rest of the world, so they filter everything through their experience. "La culture, c'est comme la confiture. Moins on on a, plus on l'étale" — Knowledge is like jam, the least you have, the more you spread it.
  - returningfory2 2y ago
    {Latin Americans, Europeans, Africans, etc...} don't know much about the rest of the world, either. But it seems that only people from the United States are criticized on this website for not knowing a whole lot about how things go in different continents.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  The cliché at hand is more about the quality of Italian food in Italy than about any cuisine in the USA. Food-wise, the US is actually doing pretty well among Western countries. I'm not going to name the countries at the bottom of the list to be respectful, but they mostly don't dispute it.
- AndrewOMartin 2y ago
  If you want, coin the name. The fact is that the probability of any topic being mentioned in a discussion approaches one as the length of the discussion approaches infinity. It should have been called Godwin's Tautology. :)

PaywallBuster 2y ago

https://archive.is/z79rC https://archive.is/z79rC

Double_a_92 2y ago

I almost thought Italy wasted money on solar freaking roadways...

RCitronsBroker 2y ago

France has a "autoroute du soleil", too. suffered through many traffic jams in various AC-less shitboxes on my way to go skydiving in northern Spain. Fun times.

easyThrowaway 2y ago

I wish I had the same experience. All my memories of the Italian highways are from being stuck for hours on the Salerno-Reggio on what at the time looked like thousands kms of unpaved and closed roads.

davidelettieri 2y ago
I've been driving from Rome to Calabria for several years now and I think the Salerno-Reggio Calabria has vastly improved while still being without tolls. I would just say that it's missing some gas station and services but the road is good.

Lucasoato 2y ago

Ah, back in the days we were still building public infrastructure. Nowadays everything’s ruined and Mafia is eating up a lot of public spending. Just check the crazy idea of the Messina strait bridge… billions that will be eaten by the clans, instead of maintaining and improving what we already have.

2dvisio 2y ago

For those interested in the relationship between humans, their supporting infrastructure (not just highways, but also the cities and everything around those), and nature specifically from a perspective of the Autostrada del Mediterraneo: I can suggest this book: www.store.rubbettinoeditore.it/catalogo/presente-infinito/ which tries (just visually through photos) to demonstrate that complicated and precarious relationship.

oriettaxx 2y ago

in the year Italy started that "exceptional" project many students in the South had still basic schools in almost open air: that "highway" was the result of a big lobby work by FIAT that wanted all Italians to have a car (their, FIAT, car), and it was something not really needed: oh, yes, it was a bit like the new deal in the US: big infrastructure to have jobs, in a typical Italian contest, a big favour to the Agnelli's family (owner of FIAT and rich industries before, during, and after the war). Fiat also lobby to remove public buses (filobus, tramway, electrical.. already in place in those years) from main cities: this, of course, to push for cars: not in Torino, their headquarter, but in many many big cities. To me that motorway is pretty much a sad opera, as sad as all investments made in Dodecanese when Italy took it (for free, without a single serious gunshot) from the Ottomans: there, too, some avveniristic operas.... sea planes bases, big restoration (the walls of Rodos... with a pretty 'exotic' taste, which I like a lot even if is considered a clear example on how not to restore antic city walls :), and of course planty of roads (pretty well done, sure) to serve well in case of military purpose: this in the '20ies when, once again, schools where even more misarable then the 50ies.