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Arendt makes a compelling case, but unfortunately one that does not stand up to our advances in neuroscience. The will as described here does not exist. There

Arendt makes a compelling case, but unfortunately one that does not stand up to our advances in neuroscience. The will as described here does not exist. There is nothing beyond conditioning.

phreeza 2y ago
Not sure how you come to this conclusion, neuroscience is nowhere near advanced enough to have clarity on such a thing, it could well be an emergent property of neural activity.
- 39896880 2y ago
  I came to this conclusion by reading the book “Determined” by Sapolsky. https://mitpressbookstore.mit.edu/book/9780525560975 https://mitpressbookstore.mit.edu/book/9780525560975
  - phreeza 2y ago
    Ok maybe I read it differently than you, but the will in the article doesn't sound like me like what is typically discussed as "free will"? It sounds more like what could also be called "drive" or "striving".
helpfulContrib 2y ago
[dead]
nonrandomstring 2y ago
> but unfortunately Says one who does not believe in will but believes in fortune.
- vinnyvichy 2y ago
  One can believe in making fortune submit to the will :) (Like Machiavelli & Napoleon I)
heresie-dabord 2y ago
The compelling case, as you say, is simply that we can find ourselves for various reasons choosing to resist conditioning and conformity. And this resistance can be enlightening to the individual and to broader society. The personal search (self-examination) can of course be beneficial. There's no need to slip into nebulous metaphysics to understand that any challenge to a power structure may have an enlightened outcome or a disastrous outcome. The article is hagiographic and is reaching for something deep, but this passage is perhaps the essence: "But for Arendt, the will was the means to our freedom [...] The will is a space of tension inside the self where one actively feels the difference between where they are and where they would like to be. [...] "Willing is the mental activity that goes on between thinking and judgment. It has the power to shape us by drawing us into conflict with ourselves. Without inner conflict, there is no forward movement. These are the basic principles of willing: Willing is characterised by an inner state of disharmony. Willing is experienced as a felt sense of tension within the body where the mind is at war with itself. Willing makes one aware of possible decisions, which creates a feeling of being pulled in multiple directions at once. Willing can feel very lonely. Decisions and choices are shaped by one’s environment, by the everydayness of being, but ultimately the responsibility for deciding is up to oneself. Willing makes one aware of the tension that exists between oneself as a part of the world, and oneself as an individual alone existing in relationship to the world. Willing is the principle of human individuation. Willing relates to the world through action. The will is the inner organ of freedom. "
leobg 2y ago
Changes nothing. Thief: I’m not guilty. There is no free will, so I couldn’t have acted otherwise. Judge: I sentence you anyway. Because my actions, too, are predetermined.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  Nasruddin is asked to judge a village dispute: Accuser — tells a tale of woe Nasruddin — "You're right!" Accused — mounts a defense Nasruddin — "You're right, too!" Village elder — "But Mullah, they can't both be right..." Nasruddin — "All three of you are right!"
goatlover 2y ago
Conditioning is a behavioral term from when the brain was treated as a black box, and they wanted to come up with general principles of behavior in the absence of good neurological models. Things have advanced a bit since the 1950s.

Arendt makes a compelling case, but unfortunately one that does not stand up to our advances in neuroscience. The will as described here does not exist. There is nothing beyond conditioning.

phreeza 2y ago

Not sure how you come to this conclusion, neuroscience is nowhere near advanced enough to have clarity on such a thing, it could well be an emergent property of neural activity.

39896880 2y ago
I came to this conclusion by reading the book “Determined” by Sapolsky. https://mitpressbookstore.mit.edu/book/9780525560975 https://mitpressbookstore.mit.edu/book/9780525560975
- phreeza 2y ago
  Ok maybe I read it differently than you, but the will in the article doesn't sound like me like what is typically discussed as "free will"? It sounds more like what could also be called "drive" or "striving".

helpfulContrib 2y ago

[dead]

nonrandomstring 2y ago

> but unfortunately Says one who does not believe in will but believes in fortune.

vinnyvichy 2y ago
One can believe in making fortune submit to the will :) (Like Machiavelli & Napoleon I)

heresie-dabord 2y ago

The compelling case, as you say, is simply that we can find ourselves for various reasons choosing to resist conditioning and conformity. And this resistance can be enlightening to the individual and to broader society. The personal search (self-examination) can of course be beneficial. There's no need to slip into nebulous metaphysics to understand that any challenge to a power structure may have an enlightened outcome or a disastrous outcome. The article is hagiographic and is reaching for something deep, but this passage is perhaps the essence: "But for Arendt, the will was the means to our freedom [...] The will is a space of tension inside the self where one actively feels the difference between where they are and where they would like to be. [...] "Willing is the mental activity that goes on between thinking and judgment. It has the power to shape us by drawing us into conflict with ourselves. Without inner conflict, there is no forward movement. These are the basic principles of willing: Willing is characterised by an inner state of disharmony. Willing is experienced as a felt sense of tension within the body where the mind is at war with itself. Willing makes one aware of possible decisions, which creates a feeling of being pulled in multiple directions at once. Willing can feel very lonely. Decisions and choices are shaped by one’s environment, by the everydayness of being, but ultimately the responsibility for deciding is up to oneself. Willing makes one aware of the tension that exists between oneself as a part of the world, and oneself as an individual alone existing in relationship to the world. Willing is the principle of human individuation. Willing relates to the world through action. The will is the inner organ of freedom. "

leobg 2y ago

Changes nothing. Thief: I’m not guilty. There is no free will, so I couldn’t have acted otherwise. Judge: I sentence you anyway. Because my actions, too, are predetermined.

082349872349872 2y ago
Nasruddin is asked to judge a village dispute: Accuser — tells a tale of woe Nasruddin — "You're right!" Accused — mounts a defense Nasruddin — "You're right, too!" Village elder — "But Mullah, they can't both be right..." Nasruddin — "All three of you are right!"

goatlover 2y ago

Conditioning is a behavioral term from when the brain was treated as a black box, and they wanted to come up with general principles of behavior in the absence of good neurological models. Things have advanced a bit since the 1950s.