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> So the word viking, and the period 800 to 1066, show a very limited view of the northern European history. I'm Danish and I think that it's cool that you lik

> So the word viking, and the period 800 to 1066, show a very limited view of the northern European history. I'm Danish and I think that it's cool that you like our history, but I would encourage you to be a little more inclusive as far as the word "Viking" goes. As I understand it the word has an origin in what the people around "Viken" called them selves in the period. This is the area around the Oslo fjord and Skagerrak, and it's actually a lot less "sexy" when you know that the word "vig/vik" means "bay". Anyway in Denmark, Norway and Sweden (and possibly more Scandinavian countries) we actually call the period vikingetiden (The Viking Age). I know that a lot of the popular culture (and even academic) focus on the age is on the BERSERKERGANG parts. Probably not too surprising considering ordinary life was really rather mundane, with around 95% of populations in Denmark/Norway/Sweden being regular iron age farmers. I don't think this should discourage you from using the word "viking", however, I don't know any Scandinavians who would think less of you at least. What we dislike is the cultural appropriation by far right fools. Which has gotten so bad, even here, that I sort of need to wear a giant rainbow hat to signal that I'm "safe" to be around if there is a pride or whatever going on in my town because I look sort of evil to some people. I'd probably describe me as a biker dadbod + beard and tattoos. > The east coast of England was dotted with roman forts, defended by fast moving Dalmatian cavalry against raids from the north sea. As soon as the romans left we see an invasion of people from Denmark and northern Germany. This part is especially interesting to me personally. Maybe not so much what happened in England, but the consequences of the Romans leaving France with France subsequently getting rather serious about "being good at civilization". Which meant that they attacked as far as into Danish Sønderjylland, pushing the northern germanic and scandinavian people toward expansion elsewhere. Which is what lead to we now know as the "viking routes" Anyway, don't let certain representations of "viking culture" (whatever they may be) discourage you from using the word "viking".

porbelm 2y ago
The appropriation of the Scandinavian norrøn viking lore by the extreme right/nazi-adjacent/nazi groups is so annoying. I'm from around Tønsberg (look it up) and we have a lot of people with a healthy, normal interest in the old medieval stuff. We also have a lot of people that use it for their nazi feelgood shit. Problem is, you can't tell 'em apart unless you can see their other, less visible tattoos :(
- mantas 2y ago
  And the other problem is many people call anybody interested in native culture and its preservation a nazi. Which is bullshit especially since original nazis didn’t give a damn fuck about preservation of anything, but tried to build a new superhuman based on their fantasies.
  - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
    I think nationalism/ white supremacy are more so the issue. While they might not be Nazis, and in fact a lot of them really don't like Germans, I personally encountered a lot of the Scandanavian White purity types. They often use ancient Scandinavian history as a source of pride and to justify that type of superiorty. In fact I often tell people that Sweden and Norway have the most closeted racist society I've been exposed to. This is saying a lot considering I'm American!
    - mantas 2y ago
      What’s the problem with nationalism? Coming from Central Europe, here nationalism is anti-imperialist and about nations self governing themselves to promote native cultures. And as far as I know Scandinavian nationalism is pretty similar with no imperialist ambitions.
      - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
        There's nothing wrong with being patriotic (usually), the problem is when your national identity gets roped in with the color of your skin, which is certainly something I've seen many times over Norway and Sweden. While they have incredibly fair and polite societies they say some insane things behind closed doors.
        mantas 2y ago
        Skin color is most visible proxy of a foreign color. Let’s not pretend that those people blend in local cultures very well. Nor do people with white skin, to be fair. Scandinavians are even more against central Europe migrants. While racism card silences some people regarding other skin colors, they double down on fellow Europeans. And knowing folks who emigrated there… I can’t say I blame Scandinavians for not liking them.
poisonarena 2y ago
[flagged]
- gunnihinn 2y ago
  Good for you to stick up for the _checks notes_ nazis.
  - bloopernova 2y ago
    It's astonishing to me that there are people defending nazis as "just another political ideology", or "just a normal reaction to leftwing people". The very ideology that the free world spent 5 years at total war to defeat. The people who defeated fascism in WW2 are literally called The Greatest Generation but nowadays we have people thinking "oh I bet we can make fascism work for us. It's never backfired on its adherents!" I wonder if that's due to WW2 veterans dying, or just plain time passing. And will we see another Axis?
    - Bluestein 2y ago
      > And will we see another Axis Unfortunately, yes.-
    - Amezarak 2y ago
      > The very ideology that the free world spent 5 years at total war to defeat. The people who defeated fascism in WW2 are literally called The Greatest Generation but nowadays we have people thinking "oh I bet we can make fascism work for us. It's never backfired on its adherents!" This is a historical anachronism. "Nazi ideology" (by which we typically mean things in particular like eugenics, racism and antisemitism, but perhaps also things like "strong nationalism" or "leader-centralized authoritatianism") was not the reason the US or other Allies went into the war, nor was it the reason why most people volunteered to fight, assuming they were not drafted. (Of course, there were exceptions.) The mythologization of the war in modern times has led to a much, much greater modern hatred of Nazi ideology than what existed in the 1940s, even in the postwar period. If you read newspaper articles and private letters from the period, it's really quite shocking the sentiments the average American, Frenchman, or Englishman had. It is also of course always worth mentioning the enormous Soviet contribution to the war effort against Germany, without which Allied victory would have almost certainly been impossible - and the Soviet Union under Stalin was not exactly "the free world", to put it mildly.
Unbefleckt 2y ago
I don't think it's appropriation if they're ethnically nordic, is it? Whether they have a rainbow or a swastika.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  Why base it on ethnicity? I'm not sure the original peoples would have focused on that rather than, say, culture, for the in/out grouping. It's my understanding that the ethnic focus came much later with the rise of nationalism and even later with genetics. Consider that these seafarers would have habitually mated with people from Britain, Ireland and even the Maghreb as we see here. Do you think they would have considered the offspring of such pairings as less Viking? For my that culture is essentially gone and it's basically appropriation no matter your DNA.
  - Unbefleckt 2y ago
    I've only ever seen people cry cultural appropriation in the context of someone not being the "correct" ethnicity.
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      Are you sure ethnicity was always mentioned as the factor that determine the in/out group? It could be projection, an assumption from your own cultural milieu.
      - Unbefleckt 2y ago
        For cultural appropriation, sure. A person born in the USA to a racially Vietnamese family isn't going to get shit for wearing Vietnamese traditional garb despite being raised in America. An American that doesn't pass as Vietnamese sure would.
        AlecSchueler 2y ago
        That ethnicity can sometimes be a factor doesn't mean A) it's always a factor or always the primary factor or B) that we can assume it's how Vikings a 1000 years ago would have thought about it. Consider also the cases of Americans who, despite being able to show "Irish ethnicity," are laughed at in Ireland for calling themselves Irish. Or people from around the world who take Islam as their religion and are accepted into Mecca despite their disparate ethnic backgrounds. I'd also point to multi-ethnic nations such as the British nation where Cornish, Scottish, Welsh and Saxon are all seen as equally part of the nation. As I said in my other comment there are a variety of things like religion, cultural practice, common leadership/political belief, geography etc which can and do play roles in creating in/out groups. I'm not saying ethnicity never plays a role in these things, only that there's little reason to assume that genetics would have been the main playing point in the mind of Vikings.
INTPenis 2y ago
Don't encourage me, encourage the researchers. It's a well established opinion that the so called viking-age was from around 789 (Lindisfarne raid) to 1066 (Harald loses England). Simply because those are the written sources we have. But us laypeople are allowed to romanticize and consider other variables. Btw I'm swedish and I speak fluent danish. ;) Lived 20 years around the Øresund region.

porbelm 2y ago

The appropriation of the Scandinavian norrøn viking lore by the extreme right/nazi-adjacent/nazi groups is so annoying. I'm from around Tønsberg (look it up) and we have a lot of people with a healthy, normal interest in the old medieval stuff. We also have a lot of people that use it for their nazi feelgood shit. Problem is, you can't tell 'em apart unless you can see their other, less visible tattoos :(

mantas 2y ago
And the other problem is many people call anybody interested in native culture and its preservation a nazi. Which is bullshit especially since original nazis didn’t give a damn fuck about preservation of anything, but tried to build a new superhuman based on their fantasies.
- TechDebtDevin 2y ago
  I think nationalism/ white supremacy are more so the issue. While they might not be Nazis, and in fact a lot of them really don't like Germans, I personally encountered a lot of the Scandanavian White purity types. They often use ancient Scandinavian history as a source of pride and to justify that type of superiorty. In fact I often tell people that Sweden and Norway have the most closeted racist society I've been exposed to. This is saying a lot considering I'm American!
  - mantas 2y ago
    What’s the problem with nationalism? Coming from Central Europe, here nationalism is anti-imperialist and about nations self governing themselves to promote native cultures. And as far as I know Scandinavian nationalism is pretty similar with no imperialist ambitions.
    - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
      There's nothing wrong with being patriotic (usually), the problem is when your national identity gets roped in with the color of your skin, which is certainly something I've seen many times over Norway and Sweden. While they have incredibly fair and polite societies they say some insane things behind closed doors.
      - mantas 2y ago
        Skin color is most visible proxy of a foreign color. Let’s not pretend that those people blend in local cultures very well. Nor do people with white skin, to be fair. Scandinavians are even more against central Europe migrants. While racism card silences some people regarding other skin colors, they double down on fellow Europeans. And knowing folks who emigrated there… I can’t say I blame Scandinavians for not liking them.

poisonarena 2y ago

[flagged]

gunnihinn 2y ago
Good for you to stick up for the _checks notes_ nazis.
- bloopernova 2y ago
  It's astonishing to me that there are people defending nazis as "just another political ideology", or "just a normal reaction to leftwing people". The very ideology that the free world spent 5 years at total war to defeat. The people who defeated fascism in WW2 are literally called The Greatest Generation but nowadays we have people thinking "oh I bet we can make fascism work for us. It's never backfired on its adherents!" I wonder if that's due to WW2 veterans dying, or just plain time passing. And will we see another Axis?
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    > And will we see another Axis Unfortunately, yes.-
  - Amezarak 2y ago
    > The very ideology that the free world spent 5 years at total war to defeat. The people who defeated fascism in WW2 are literally called The Greatest Generation but nowadays we have people thinking "oh I bet we can make fascism work for us. It's never backfired on its adherents!" This is a historical anachronism. "Nazi ideology" (by which we typically mean things in particular like eugenics, racism and antisemitism, but perhaps also things like "strong nationalism" or "leader-centralized authoritatianism") was not the reason the US or other Allies went into the war, nor was it the reason why most people volunteered to fight, assuming they were not drafted. (Of course, there were exceptions.) The mythologization of the war in modern times has led to a much, much greater modern hatred of Nazi ideology than what existed in the 1940s, even in the postwar period. If you read newspaper articles and private letters from the period, it's really quite shocking the sentiments the average American, Frenchman, or Englishman had. It is also of course always worth mentioning the enormous Soviet contribution to the war effort against Germany, without which Allied victory would have almost certainly been impossible - and the Soviet Union under Stalin was not exactly "the free world", to put it mildly.

Unbefleckt 2y ago

I don't think it's appropriation if they're ethnically nordic, is it? Whether they have a rainbow or a swastika.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
Why base it on ethnicity? I'm not sure the original peoples would have focused on that rather than, say, culture, for the in/out grouping. It's my understanding that the ethnic focus came much later with the rise of nationalism and even later with genetics. Consider that these seafarers would have habitually mated with people from Britain, Ireland and even the Maghreb as we see here. Do you think they would have considered the offspring of such pairings as less Viking? For my that culture is essentially gone and it's basically appropriation no matter your DNA.
- Unbefleckt 2y ago
  I've only ever seen people cry cultural appropriation in the context of someone not being the "correct" ethnicity.
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    Are you sure ethnicity was always mentioned as the factor that determine the in/out group? It could be projection, an assumption from your own cultural milieu.
    - Unbefleckt 2y ago
      For cultural appropriation, sure. A person born in the USA to a racially Vietnamese family isn't going to get shit for wearing Vietnamese traditional garb despite being raised in America. An American that doesn't pass as Vietnamese sure would.
      - AlecSchueler 2y ago
        That ethnicity can sometimes be a factor doesn't mean A) it's always a factor or always the primary factor or B) that we can assume it's how Vikings a 1000 years ago would have thought about it. Consider also the cases of Americans who, despite being able to show "Irish ethnicity," are laughed at in Ireland for calling themselves Irish. Or people from around the world who take Islam as their religion and are accepted into Mecca despite their disparate ethnic backgrounds. I'd also point to multi-ethnic nations such as the British nation where Cornish, Scottish, Welsh and Saxon are all seen as equally part of the nation. As I said in my other comment there are a variety of things like religion, cultural practice, common leadership/political belief, geography etc which can and do play roles in creating in/out groups. I'm not saying ethnicity never plays a role in these things, only that there's little reason to assume that genetics would have been the main playing point in the mind of Vikings.

INTPenis 2y ago

Don't encourage me, encourage the researchers. It's a well established opinion that the so called viking-age was from around 789 (Lindisfarne raid) to 1066 (Harald loses England). Simply because those are the written sources we have. But us laypeople are allowed to romanticize and consider other variables. Btw I'm swedish and I speak fluent danish. ;) Lived 20 years around the Øresund region.